Genelec 8330+7350 or Neumann KH 120 II+KH750 for casual music enjoyment

[Pritaudio]

Under 400Hz waves are "omnidirectional" - no matter if radiated from satellites, or subwoofer.

Why do most people have a crossover around 80hz and below then. Is it due to limitations of the sub above 80hz.
Or there being a time delay between the sub and mains at the listening position.
If it is 400hz, then it would make sense to crossover much higher to relieve the mains woofer of low frequency duties.

 

[Kyle_PL]

Why do most people have a crossover around 80hz and below then.

Because "omnidirectional" not equal "hearable/non hearable directivity".

Or there being a time delay between the sub and mains at the listening position.

Genelec GLM system, have time delay compensation (if sub are further than satellites 1meter=3ms to compensate {+3ms to satellites delay added by DSP}).

 

[Halbknapp]

The low crossover point is to not make the position of the Subwoofer too obvious as a 3rd sound source. With a 400hz crossover you would create a 3 way system and need a sub per side that would need to play midrange (which it can't properly) and sub and sat need to be very close to not create too much lobing (which is not practical).
Even with low crossover a Subwoofer may still be audible as sound source. That is not because 80hz can be directionally detected but any harmonics the sub creates can be detected and if the sub gets stuff around it to resonate these sounds may also be audible and give away its position.

 

[Kyle_PL]

80hz can be directionally detected but any harmonics the sub creates can be detected

* don't buy cheap/poor/crappy subwoofer

 

[Halbknapp]

As an owner of KH150 I would propably still get KH120 II and a sub first as there are still serious bass limitations with satellite speakers alone.

To elaborate - placed on my desk the KH150 play down to ~40hz but I have a cancellation around 40hz on my listening position. Therefore I only get 50hz in room response from the KH150. There is consequently not much benefit from the KH150 over a KH120 II other then maximum spl. A Subwoofer however placed on the floor and against the wall can perfectly play anything from 20 to 80hz with high volume (even a KH150 placed on the floor against the wall would do much better). Therefore in many cases even a great speaker can not do what a sub can do simply due to placement and room interaction.

I also have (bigger) bookshelf Hifi speakers that sound much better in bass then the KH150 because they reach lower and touch the lower room resonances. With the above example these speakers may be heard at the 33hz room mode and 55hz room mode where the KH150 may only activate the 55hz mode. Of course with different rooms the situation may be not as drastical

 

[Halbknapp]

* don't buy cheap/poor/crappy subwoofer

I can hear all the subs I ever had under the right circumstances. Closed ones as well as vented.
Maybe some people are not as sensitive.

 

[Kyle_PL]

I can hear all the subs I ever had under the right circumstances.

... always hardware calibrated ofcourse? (delays, room compensation, perfectly equal reinforcement sub vs satellites in listening point, opltimal cut-off)

So what hardware calibrated subwoofers (and connected hardware calibrated monitors to them) have You tested, an they "directivity" (directivity of sub) was hearable, at 80Hz cutoff?

 

[Digby]

From looking at the floorplan you provided, are you living in an apartment? If so I would think twice about a subwoofer, unless your building is very well soundproofed and/or you already hate the neighbours.

 

[Kyle_PL]

The same with speakers that go lower than 80 Hz :] ... right, Digby?

 

[Digby]

No, not the same.

 

[Kyle_PL]

Why, Digby?

 

[Digby]

Because the neighbours won't hear them at the same level through the walls.

 

[Kyle_PL]

50 Hz @80 dB from satellites is less hearable "through the walls" than 50 Hz @ 80 dB from subwoofer? ... why, Digby?

 

[Digby]

I think audible might be the word you are after. I didn't say it was (less audible at 50hz/80db), although in practise it might be seeing as a subwoofer is commonly on the floor and (often) in a corner, as opposed to on stands/desk for satellites.

The reason a sub is more audible (through walls) is a different one to what you suggest, namely lower frequency response.

 

[Halbknapp]

... always hardware calibrated ofcourse? (delays, room compensation, perfectly equal reinforcement sub vs satellites in listening point, opltimal cut-off)

So what hardware calibrated subwoofers (and connected hardware calibrated monitors to them) have You tested, an they "directivity" (directivity of sub) was hearable, at 80Hz cutoff?

Let's use this genelec 7360 under my desk as example (the box on the side is temporary and hides christmas presents). If mainly the sub plays then I have a certain chance to notice it as a sound source. Crossover is left at the default 85hz. Other examples would be closed subs in my living room where a door nearby may start to rattle or plastic boxes nearby will shake.

 

[Halbknapp]

I think audible might be the word you are after. I didn't say it was (less audible at 50hz/80db), although in practise it might be seeing as a subwoofer is commonly on the floor and (often) in a corner, as opposed to on stands/desk for satellites.

The reason a sub is more audible (through walls) is a different one to what you suggest, namely lower frequency response.

One could argue that typically a sub will play more bass and bass is easier transmitted through walls. But a big floorstander would do just the same and a Subwoofer that is highpassed in the night may just be as audible as a bookshelf speaker. A typical solution would be to decouple the sub from the floor and in addition have two settings so the sub won't work or is highpassed or just less loud in the night.

In the Pic from my previous post the sub goes down to 17hz on room where the satellites only hit 50hz. Sadly the listening position has much less bass the the remaining flat so an even bass response for me means loud rumble for everyone else. So no loud night listening for me ;-)

 

[Kyle_PL]

Let's use this genelec 7360 under my desk as example

Nice sub. Could You show calibration plot for sub? (i wonder how much it's corrected by GLM - in room at lower freq. there is a lot of "bump")

 

[LTig]

However, I realize that my conditions are far from ideal and the problem with the sub is that it can only be placed deep under the desk by the wall and I wonder how much "real benefit" there will be from a sub placed like this vs. let's say 2 larger monitors on the desk. Maybe taking into consideration my limited conditions, it would be better to just go with 2 larger monitors instead of smaller ones + sub (?).

I have 2 Genelec 8020a (similar SPL capacity as the KH80) on my desk and adding the KH750 under the desk made a big improvement, more than I had expected. Watching movies is a great experience with deep bass you can feel.

IMV the KH750 is better than the 7050, FR goes lower, and maybe it being sealed makes it easier to integrate with the sats.

 

[Kyle_PL]

KH750 could be calibrated, like Genelec 7350A, but with Genelec 7050 You can't do that.

 

[Halbknapp]

I have 2 Genelec 8020a (similar SPL capacity as the KH80) on my desk and adding the KH750 under the desk made a big improvement, more than I had expected. Watching movies is a great experience with deep bass you can feel.

IMV the KH750 is better than the 7050, FR goes lower, and maybe it being sealed makes it easier to integrate with the sats.

A KH750 is special as it can even calibrate the connected genelec 8020a, something the Genelec 73xx sub will not do. That will give yet another big improvement (if it's not already done).