Genelec 5.2.4 HT/Music Setup

[abdo123]

Changing goalposts by mixing amounts with ratios?

Perceptually we hear the ratio, not the absolute amount. Why would the absolute amount be relevant?

I always argued about the ratio btw.

 

[kellyItall]

hello. topic for me thanks kelly

i found this web and i would to help you with evolution. i am from UAE ;D

 

[Sancus]

hello. topic for me thanks kelly

i found this web and i would to help you with evolution. i am from UAE ;D

I.. what?

 

[kma100]

I.. what?

I think the bot wants to help you through the evolutionary process .

 

[tifune]

10. Why not Genelec 8361As for L/C/R?

I considered them, but I think they're a bit too large and they're also heavier than I wanted to deal with. They would not be able to be mounted using the adapters and stands I've chosen, for example. This system has plenty of output for a ~2.5m listening distance, especially since I upmix everything with Auro3D so the center helps even stereo material.

Is weight also the reason your fronts are on different poles? I see where you mention the clamps, but not the poles. Unless they're the same SKU? I'm basically copying this setup with Neumann's, a lot more closed-in though. All speakers will be within 1m. Trying to fit all the pieces together before I actually buy anything

Also, now that you've gone through it all, anything you would do differently? Reading through it, you definitely seem like you have the experience and knowledge to achieve good sub optimization so maybe smaller LCR? Looks pretty easy to stay on-axis from that listening position, the 80x0 series would've saved a few thousand $. But, I certainly understand the desire to go all-in, as it were (I have kef R-series 6.2.4 - total overkill but I couldn't resist once I heard Auro3D)

Finally, do the Neumanns and the Genelec's blend OK? I tried using LS50 Meta as heights with R5's, maybe it was placebo due to gold vs. black Uni-Q but they did not mesh at all and during playback it was surprisingly distracting. Probably someone with more skill could EQ in such a way to stitch them together but I never figured it out

 

[Sancus]

Is weight also the reason your fronts are on different poles? I see where you mention the clamps, but not the poles. Unless they're the same SKU? I'm basically copying this setup with Neumann's, a lot more closed-in though. All speakers will be within 1m. Trying to fit all the pieces together before I actually buy anything

No, the reason is minimum height. You can't clamp a speaker on the bottom tube section. The bottom tube section is 42mm diameter, the top is 35mm. The super long poles have a minimum height that is above ear level. Here's a photo to show you exactly what I mean. The circled spot is where the adapter rests on the bottom section. That's the minimum height. (The adapter is upside down to alleviate the sagging issue I mentioned in the OP).

I can't put the surrounds on separate poles because it prevents putting anything on top of the base, and that was a very important feature for me, as I wanted to save the space and have my end tables/subwoofer fit on top of the surround bases. Otherwise I would have. They sound fine being a bit above ear level so it's not that big of a deal. If I used a shorter pole, the heights would also be shorter, so there would be no separation gain.

The only other solution is coming up with some separate clamp system to clamp speakers to the bottom 42mm part, but that would require you to find or make your own clamps and mounting bracket.

Also, now that you've gone through it all, anything you would do differently? Reading through it, you definitely seem like you have the experience and knowledge to achieve good sub optimization so maybe smaller LCR?

I would have bought Genelecs from the start and used them for heights(8030C or 8330A probably, 8331A too $$$ for heights imo lol). I would ceiling mount the heights if I owned a house/condo and was confident I wouldn't be moving for a long time though, and switch the surrounds to the ear level pole size. I do also plan to add (some) room treatment.

Other than that I'm happy, not planning to make any changes. I could go smaller LCR in this setup, yes, but I also wanted to have a "portable" setup that I could move with me to anywhere else I plan to live in the future, for at least 10 years. The nice thing about Genelec Ones is that you can listen very close, or pretty far(4m+) and it's always going to be a good experience. So if I lose my job and end up in a shoebox, they'll still be good. And if I move into a house and have a larger room, still good. Even with subs, you have to be mindful of the 100-300hz woofer limitations.

Also, I use them for background music when I'm elsewhere sometimes, etc. I really love that you can be anywhere and music still sounds pretty much the same, because off-axis is so uniform. Any height too. I always hated how when I would get up off the sofa, with other speakers, the tonality would just become weird. It's not REALLY important, but I just love the way everything is always the same with the Ones. It's something you only get from coaxials.

Finally, do the Neumanns and the Genelec's blend OK? I tried using LS50 Meta as heights with R5's, maybe it was placebo due to gold vs. black Uni-Q but they did not mesh at all and during playback it was surprisingly distracting. Probably someone with more skill could EQ in such a way to stitch them together but I never figured it out

I EQ everything with Audyssey so it puts them on the same target curve. IMO this is essential for any multichannel setup. You must be able to EQ them all to the same target curve. There's too much variation caused by speaker placement alone otherwise. Even if the target curve isn't perfect, it's the consistency you want.

I find the KH80s to blend just fine. Maybe someone more critical, or in a different room, would disagree, or maybe once I add a bunch of room treatment it will change things, I dunno. I do plan to change them out for Genelecs one day, it's just a low priority. 99% of what comes out of them is TV/Film sound effects or Auro3D reflections.

 

[Descartes]

It looks you spent at least 50,000 in this set up! Very nice!

 

[tifune]

I would have bought Genelecs from the start and used them for heights(8030C or 8330A probably, 8331A too $$$ for heights imo lol). I would ceiling mount the heights if I owned a house/condo and was confident I wouldn't be moving for a long time though, and switch the surrounds to the ear level pole size. I do also plan to add (some) room treatment.

You inspired me to start deal hunting for a Genelec surround setup. I was able to find a 25% offer if I buy 8351B, 8341A, and 8331A all at once. Before I spend the next 30 days tweaking to make 100% certain I want to do it before the return window closes, I was wondering if you had experience with any other Neumann monitors besides the KH80, and if so how they compare to the Ones? All speakers will be within 1m, so basically i'll be on-axis the entire time. I already have, and adore, the KH310's but the depth of soundstage I get from Kef R-series is immaculate, something I haven't been able to replicate with Neumann or even Revel Be. I'm presuming (hoping) the Ones have a similar characteristic.

 

[Sancus]

I was wondering if you had experience with any other Neumann monitors besides the KH80, and if so how they compare to the Ones? All speakers will be within 1m, so basically i'll be on-axis the entire time.

I tried out the KH120 briefly in a shop once, they seemed like larger KH80s but I wasn't trying too hard to analyze. Other than that, no. However, Neumann doesn't have as much consistency in their lineup as the Ones. You go from 2-ways to 3-ways and then the KH310 is sealed and the 420 is ported... it's not great if you plan to mix sizes.

If you do an all KH310 setup for every channel it's probably quite good. I'm sure somebody around here has at least heard the KH310 and 8351B, not sure about the 420s. We do have some owners, dunno if they've heard Genelec.

Personally I think the sound differences between Neumann and Genelec are going to be minimal in a multi-channel setup if you use some kind of EQ to tune the target curve to your preference anyway. The Ones give you identical sound even if you are standing or sitting on the floor which is something I wanted specifically because I really dislike speakers with poor vertical directivity, it's a pet peeve. I know that's not important to most, but it is to me especially at these prices.

 

[ethanhallbeyer]

People have seemed interested in multi-channel Genelec setups for a while now, so I figured I would make one post with photos and other information about my own setup, rather than pointing people to posts spread over a dozen+ threads.

Gear​

L/C/R are Genelec 8351Bs.
LS/RS are Genelec 8341As.
4 x Heights are Neumann KH80.
2 x Subwoofers are Arendal 1723 2S.

Stands are: K&M 26706 Base Plate + 24623 Rod (heights/surrounds) + 26736 Rod (L/R). The 19780 adapter is used for all speakers, but the 19610 could also be used. The 8351Bs are pretty near the weight limit for that adapter, so they tend to sag a bit, but flipping the adapters upside down(so the angle adjustment can only tilt upwards) fixed that. The friction clamp on the 19780 will not hold an 8351B(14.3kg) but will hold an 8341A(9.8kg). If the speaker is at the minimum height, the clamp does not need to support the weight because it will rest on the lower tube section.

Electronics: Denon X4500H + Nvidia Shield TV Pro.

TV: LG 65" C9 OLED.

For anyone else who wants to do this, I suggest taking care with selecting your distance rods, since the 19780 adapter clamps on the upper 35mm section of the rod, but NOT on the lower 42mm one. So there is a minimum height you can use that depends on the particular rod.

FAQ​

1. Why not use digital outputs for the Genelecs?

So far it's not really practical if you want an AVP that can decode Atmos and upmix w/Auro3D, which I do. The cheapest option is the JBL SDP-55($6K) with its Dante outputs, but that has some kind of bug that makes a ticking sound sometimes. Other options would be Storm/Trinnov processors(too $$$ for me) with digital output options, or modifying your own AVR to have digital outputs. I am very skeptical there is any audible improvement except maybe a small noise floor reduction, so it's not a major concern. I would like to use Dante just to clean up the cabling situation, though.

2. Why not use Genelec subwoofers? Don't they integrate better?

Genelec subwoofers are really expensive relative to the SPL they output. And unfortunately, GLM does not have a particularly sophisticated subwoofer EQ system for home listening. This post elaborates. But the short version is that GLM's subwoofer EQ strategy is not as sophisticated as Multi-Sub Optimizer or Dirac Bass Control. All that said, Genelec subwoofers are very convenient especially for stereo setups and I wouldn't hesitate to buy them if you don't want to worry about manual sub integration.

3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

4. Measurements?

I'll add more detail later, but for now here is a single point full-range measurement and a spectrogram. This is after GLM+Audyssey correction, and with Multi-Sub Optimizer. Since this is a single point measurement, the high frequency information is not super accurate.

5. Why no room treatment?

Mostly haven't gotten around to it. The frequency response is pretty good as-is, honestly. I would like to reduce the RT60 times somewhat overall but that's about it. I am planning to add a little room treatment eventually, but I need to make sure I purchase things that will look reasonably decent in the room and match the furniture etc, so that is a concern, and may require a custom order. That complicates things since I need to figure out where I want treatment before I order it.

6. Why not ported subs/Why dual opposed subs?

They're mostly too large for my space. While there are similar sized ported subs to the Arendals that offer a bit more low end output, they tend to have port tunings above/close to 20hz, and I don't love the increased group delay caused by that. It's very unclear if it's audible, to be honest, but I'd rather not worry about it. Also, a nice side benefit of dual opposed woofer subs is that they don't physically vibrate or move at all. So you can reasonably use them as end tables, as I am doing on the right side of the sofa, and you don't have to worry about anything rattling or falling off of them.

7. How did you use Multi-Sub Optimizer with this setup?

Good question. The TLDR; is that you can use anything that allows PEQs for each subwoofer channels, and in this case, the subwoofers themselves have 7 PEQ slots for each one. There is some information in this post here. I am planning to write a mini-tutorial on this later.

8. How are your heights configured?

They are set as "Front" and "Rear" heights. This is fairly important, as "Surround Heights" will NOT be used for Atmos output. Yes, this is a little out of spec because they're not really "Rear" heights, but it sounds fine. I am aware some people like to be super picky about using tops and heights separately for Atmos and Auro3D, but that just isn't practical in a space like this. Honestly, I think heights work OK for Atmos, as long as the angle between the listener and the speaker is relatively steep. At the end of the day, you're always better off with suboptimally positioned height/tops than none.

9. Why Neumann KH80s for heights and not Genelec 8331As or 8030C etc/Why don't the Neumanns match?

The Neumanns were my first purchases, and the black ones were on sale. I bought them before I'd even decided to start using Genelecs. I likely will replace them eventually with matching white Genelecs(but 8331As are insanely expensive for height use...) but it's a low priority. Probably won't happen until I move and am forced to tear down the whole system anyways. There are no audible issues with them as they are, heights just aren't that important.

10. Why not Genelec 8361As for L/C/R?

I considered them, but I think they're a bit too large and they're also heavier than I wanted to deal with. They would not be able to be mounted using the adapters and stands I've chosen, for example. This system has plenty of output for a ~2.5m listening distance, especially since I upmix everything with Auro3D so the center helps even stereo material. Of course I want W371As one day, but probably not in this room...

11. Why no W371As?

I accept donations.

Hi so you don’t think the 8361A would be supported well, or at all, with the K&M stands like you have? Do you think any stands would be able to stably support those 70lbs monsters, or would one really be limited to setting them on a desk top?

Also, about your HT setup comprised of Genelecs. Did you consider consumer grade/audiophile equipment instead? Like KEF LS50 Meta and the like? Wondering if the Genelec setup sounds a lot better than even those.

Lastly, do you ever get noise complaints from neighbors to the side or up/down stairs?

 

[ethanhallbeyer]

You inspired me to start deal hunting for a Genelec surround setup. I was able to find a 25% offer if I buy 8351B, 8341A, and 8331A all at once. Before I spend the next 30 days tweaking to make 100% certain I want to do it before the return window closes, I was wondering if you had experience with any other Neumann monitors besides the KH80, and if so how they compare to the Ones? All speakers will be within 1m, so basically i'll be on-axis the entire time. I already have, and adore, the KH310's but the depth of soundstage I get from Kef R-series is immaculate, something I haven't been able to replicate with Neumann or even Revel Be. I'm presuming (hoping) the Ones have a similar characteristic.

Where were they offering 25% off deals for bundle purchases?

 

[Sancus]

Hi so you don’t think the 8361A would be supported well, or at all, with the K&M stands like you have? Do you think any stands would be able to stably support those 70lbs monsters, or would one really be limited to setting them on a desk top?

8361A is well beyond the weight limits for the adapters that attach to the back of the speakers (19780 and 19610). There may be some way to mount it using an adapter and the bottom screw, but that would not have fit with the height speakers on the same stand, which was a major reason I went with these stands to avoid clutter. The other reason is they were available in white. There are Genelec stands for the 8361A and you can of course use a normal bookshelf pedestal stand. There may be other options for the 8361A out there -- I didn't do more research after deciding not to buy them.

Also, about your HT setup comprised of Genelecs. Did you consider consumer grade/audiophile equipment instead? Like KEF LS50 Meta and the like? Wondering if the Genelec setup sounds a lot better than even those.

Yes, I did consider Kef speakers. The LS50 was rejected because it's a coaxial 2-way which is prone to IMD and does not have sufficient mid-bass output for me. The 8351B can play MUCH louder than any LS50 especially with a sub.

The R-series was considered and rejected because:

• They are not quite as perfect in dispersion and response as the Ones.
• Genelec has more sizes available with the same design, 8341A and 8331A are nice for discreet surrounds or heights, the R3 is bigger.
• I like active speakers from a design standpoint, and I think the Ones look very cool.
• I thought I might want to upgrade to the W371A one day or that Genelec might make similar functionality available in a smaller size, and Kef does not have any competing capability.
• Genelec pricing was very favorable in Canada at the time at roughly 25% lower than the US.

Kali IN-8 was considered and rejected because it wasn't available in white and didn't have near as good performance as the Ones.

I will freely admit that my choices are poor price/performance and more about psychologically getting the best I don't recommend anyone else spend this much on speakers. If you want to, they are great, but most people would probably be just as happy with Kef R3s...

Lastly, do you ever get noise complaints from neighbors to the side or up/down stairs?

I don't. But my building is very good on soundproofing (STC 72 is required, this is about 20dB better than code) and is a high-rise with thick concrete slabs that cannot be vibrated by any mere sub. It is likely I would get noise complaints in a wood frame building with code soundproofing. But you can just turn the volume down some. I lived in a worse building previously and I was still able to listen at a satisfying volume without complaints.

If you live in a wood frame building with tissue paper walls though, that would be a different story. I avoid wood frame apartments in general because I really don't want to hear neighbours talking or shouting in general.

 

[tifune]

Where were they offering 25% off deals for bundle purchases?

Sweetwater, sort of. They had the 8351, 8341, and 8331 available as demos for around 10-15% off. They knocked it down (up?) to ~20% off for buying all of them, and then I got another ~5% off for paying by wire instead of credit card or financing.

Good news for you guys, I had the 8331's shipped straight to Erin who graciously offered to move them to the front of his queue. That way they could make it back to me in time to stay within my 30 day return window in case I hate them/find them overkill/can't let go of my sentimentality towards my KH's/whatever else might go wrong.

 

[radio3]

Can you tell me why you went for the 8351s over 8341s? Just curious what you reasoning was. I would like to get the 8351s if for nothing else their slightly higher directivity. However, my room size and listening distance are similar to yours and according to Genelec’s selection guide the 8341s seem most optimal. They will also be closer matched to surround and height speakers in terms of SPL capability.

 

[Sancus]

Can you tell me why you went for the 8351s over 8341s? Just curious what you reasoning was. I would like to get the 8351s if for nothing else their slightly higher directivity. However, my room size and listening distance are similar to yours and according to Genelec’s selection guide the 8341s seem most optimal. They will also be closer matched to surround and height speakers in terms of SPL capability.

I basically decided to go as large as I could. I discussed above why 8361As were too big, and the 8351Bs are the next down. They are +3dB(1.5x) over the 8341As with subs, and of course, each size increase controls directivity a bit lower.

I agree they're really not required for my listening distance, but this is a setup I expect to keep for 10-20 years. So they will move rooms, and potentially include the W371A. The 8351Bs are more suited to pairing with the W371A because they have the same, much more powerful midrange from the 8361A.

So basically I went with them for flexibility and because I could. If you want to stick to the requirements for the room size and listening distance, 8341As will work perfectly fine.

 

[radio3]

I guess another way of future proofing would be to have 8341 LCR initially and then when move into larger room get 8361s while moving the 8341s to surround and heights duty

I guess that is what I am leaning toward myself. in that case, the question is which surrounds and heights to start with (e.g., how well 8020 surrounds would be able to keep with 8341 LCR). Upon arrival of 8361 LCR the 8020s could be demoted to bedroom or any other number of lower SPL roles

 

[Sancus]

I guess another way of future proofing would be to have 8341 LCR initially and then when move into larger room get 8361s while moving the 8341s to surround and heights duty

Yep. I also kind of assume if I ever move to a large enough room to justify 8351B + W371A, then I would want a 7.4.4 and I'll buy 2 extra 8341As for rear surrounds. That's the nice thing about Genelec's lineup, it's easy to get whatever sizes you need while ensuring they all sound basically the same.

 

[tifune]

3. Do you use GLM or Audyssey?

I use both. I run GLM first, and then Audyssey afterwards. This minimizes the corrections Audyssey needs to perform. Doing it the other way around would also work, but it introduces the problem that GLM might create a level or EQ mismatch in the subwoofer crossover area, since it cannot measure the subwoofers. If I had a full Genelec system with Genelec subwoofers, I would probably only use GLM.

Just wondering how much tweaking you do on Audyssey once GLM has run? trying this myself for the first time, it's a bit overwhelming

 

[phoenixdogfan]

I look at this set up and feel inspired. I have an A16 Realizer I could use as the front end (up to 16 channels) of an Atmos speaker based system, I already have 4 LS 50's, and can find a smaller cheaper surrounds + center (like 4) I could use for heights. With Aiyima, cheap, good, class d amplification is like $40 a channel. And I know where I could get some poles. So something like a 5.2.4 Atmos/DTS-X/Auro 3D is not out of reach. Only problem to solve is the EQ, inasmuch as the A16 currently does not provide individual channel to channel EQ (may change with a firmware update at some point).

Since I basically stream everything over Netflix, I'm wondering if there's a PC and software based solution. It would have to apply the eq somehow to the bitstream, b/c HDMI 2.0 is limited to transmitting 8 channels with PCM, but it can transmit a full ATMOS bitstream with Metadata.

 

[kongwee]

Wood floor, blinds, irregular rom shape. That is enough for me.