Gene DellaSala of Audioholics discusses passive speaker crossover upgrade

[PristineSound]

This video is old, it was done shortly after Danny Ritchie's video responding to Andrew Robinson's video criticizing the idea of upgrading crossovers.

Gene talk about if it make sense to upgrade the stock crossover of a passive loudspeaker. After a long, but thoughtful explanation, he essentially said that some speakers are pretty high quality but the manufacturers skimp out on the crossover, and if it's not too expensive to upgrade that then it can make sense. He also use the analogy of adding a turbo charger to a Daewoo, it just doesn't make any sense.

I essentially am in full agreement with Gene, except that I probably will not buy a pair of speaker if they did skimped out on the crossover while using decent parts elsewhere and certainly against the idea of upgrading the crossover, particular with exotic parts, when I can instead upgrade the entire speaker itself.

EDIT: I am not asking if it makes a difference, it is a philosophical/budgetary debate if it is worth it.

 

[Svend P]

None of it will be audible

Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible?

As the topics "capacitor upgrade" and therefore "capacitor sound" is very controversial, the test method and its results are explained in detail. This cannot be dealt with in one minute. Sorry for this and I hope your attention span is still sufficient to read through a long text - whereby the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[PristineSound]

None of it will be audible

Capacitor upgrade in crossover - Is it audible?

As the topics "capacitor upgrade" and therefore "capacitor sound" is very controversial, the test method and its results are explained in detail. This cannot be dealt with in one minute. Sorry for this and I hope your attention span is still sufficient to read through a long text - whereby the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Indeed, better parts as it relate to better sound is just audio fool fairytale, this assumes the crossover design is crossing over optimally. Gene essentially says the same thing in the video, but he does outline other factors of benefit with better parts.

 

[DSJR]

Not always - PLEASE don't jump without doing some research first... A properly qualified speaker designer pal of mine (with proven track record) made a range of speakers and parts of the crossover had electrolytic caps, NOT directly in the circuit. He replaced them with poly types of the same capacitance and heard and measured a small but beneficial difference, so went over to the poly types. Poly caps apparently have lower resistance and some crossovers may well benefit, although said caps in the signal path as often happens in older designs may well alter the relative level of the drivers they're feeding. I once used speakers with a single higher voltage electrolytic cap to the tweeter and this designer, a different chap but also with a proven record for good sensible designs, provided suitable poly caps but warned me the tweeter would be 'hotter' in level after - it was!!!

These days and with the kind of passive speakers that perform well here on ASR, I'd leave WELL alone, as I'd suggest that much of this thinking is routinely taken into account in modern designs.

 

[RickS]

Will give the OP an opportunity for a more objective summary as a subjective one is not much better than none at all.

With a more objective summary, suggest there might be value in further membership discussion. Since this topic had been already discussed thoroughly here, want to know what the value add with this video more specifically.

 

[BeeKay]

It should only make any sense if the new crossover network is a change for the better say if crossover frequencies and general characteristics are addressed.

 

[Vacceo]

These days and with the kind of passive speakers that perform well here on ASR, I'd leave WELL alone, as I'd suggest that much of this thinking is routinely taken into account in modern designs.

Perhaps that is the best point. If the speaker works well, it does so overall. You´ll probably not get extra meaningful performance changing the crossover materials. If the point is the crossover, you might as well use actives.

 

[PristineSound]

Will give the OP an opportunity for a more objective summary as a subjective one is not much better than none at all.

With a more objective summary, suggest there might be value in further membership discussion. Since this topic had been already discussed thoroughly here, want to know what the value add with this video more specifically.

My apologies, allow me to clarify.

I was more sharing this video of Gene (I did a search on ASR and noticed that this video was not share previously, otherwise, I would not have shared it). I also shared my opinion on what I would do in terms of spending habits.

I also responded in agreement to another member that it's not audible but with some caveats. Some other caveats that I left out in that response (for sake of brevity) would be, but not limited to:

• Tighter tolerance can result in better pair matching, resulting in better imaging.
• Electrolytic caps tend to have less longevity.
• Iron core inductors can saturate causing distortions.
• More robustly spec'ed parts can be more reliable.

Also, it is always implied (with me at least) that so long as the technical specifications of parts/DUT are the same, there would not be any operational differences, let alone audible difference. If they are not spec'ed the same, it is subject to further analysis and measurement.

Other than that, I don't believe I made any claims without objective data and science.

Judging how fast the response is so far and how long the video is, I am pressed to say that not many have watched the video before commenting. The video included Gene giving adequate scientific explanation on the benefit of better parts used in a crossover. He went over part by part!

The underlying theme/question of my post is: "is it worth it" NOT "does it make a difference."

 

[A Surfer]

My apologies, allow me to clarify.

I was more sharing this video of Gene (I did a search on ASR and noticed that this video was not share previously, otherwise, I would not have shared it). I also shared my opinion on what I would do in terms of spending habits.

I also responded in agreement to another member that it's not audible but with some caveats. Some other caveats that I left out in that response (for sake of brevity) would be, but not limited to:

• Tighter tolerance can result in better pair matching, resulting in better imaging.
• Electrolytic caps tend to have less longevity.
• Iron core inductors can saturate causing distortions.
• More robustly spec'ed parts can be more reliable.

Also, it is always implied (with me at least) that so long as the technical specifications of parts/DUT are the same, there would not be any operational differences, let alone audible difference. If they are not spec'ed the same, it is subject to further analysis and measurement.

Other than that, I don't believe I made any claims without objective data and science.

Judging how fast the response is so far and how long the video is, I am pressed to say that not many have watched the video before commenting. The video included Gene giving adequate scientific explanation on the benefit of better parts used in a crossover. He went over part by part!

The underlying theme/question of my post is: "is it worth it" NOT "does it make a difference."

When there are no measurements presented in the video that demonstrates audible changes, people are not likely to be convinced of the premise.

Did Gene provide evidence, or theoretical justification only?

 

[PristineSound]

When there are no measurements presented in the video that demonstrates audible changes, people are not likely to be convinced of the premise.

Did Gene provide evidence, or theoretical justification only?

I implore you to give this video a watch, if you have not done so and if you deem worthy of your time.

If you don't think Gene's video explanation is sufficient then it is a point of discussion and you should poke holes in.

To answer your question, while gene does not present data on this video, he did reference to other articles on his website, Audioholics, where people like Dr. Toole and Steve Feinstein who contributed to. Additionally, if one has to present data to back up a reference of fundamental science while they discuss a broader topic every time, then I don't think we will have enough time in the world; the audience should be accountable to know some very basic level science or to reference such said science if they are not familiar.

 

[PristineSound]

Not always - PLEASE don't jump without doing some research first... A properly qualified speaker designer pal of mine (with proven track record) made a range of speakers and parts of the crossover had electrolytic caps, NOT directly in the circuit. He replaced them with poly types of the same capacitance and heard and measured a small but beneficial difference, so went over to the poly types. Poly caps apparently have lower resistance and some crossovers may well benefit, although said caps in the signal path as often happens in older designs may well alter the relative level of the drivers they're feeding. I once used speakers with a single higher voltage electrolytic cap to the tweeter and this designer, a different chap but also with a proven record for good sensible designs, provided suitable poly caps but warned me the tweeter would be 'hotter' in level after - it was!!!

These days and with the kind of passive speakers that perform well here on ASR, I'd leave WELL alone, as I'd suggest that much of this thinking is routinely taken into account in modern designs.

Please see my clarification.

 

[RickS]

EDIT: Speaking as an ASR member, rather than (my earlier post) as moderator...

From experience, speaker crossovers are an important part, but crossover parts are much less so. I had seen the video previously and, found it waffled around the aspect of a speaker as a system design. Moreover, selection of a crossover component is more than specs, it is about quality too. Having worked with quality engineers regarding component quality, it is not just a matter of choosing a good component in design but knowing that the production units match and are consistent quality. Sometimes a component from the same manufacturer might be better from one location than another.

With regards to creating a matched speaker pair, drivers often have more variability than most crossover parts. Even a batch of less expensive caps can be screened to match. Speaker drivers are electro-mechanical and much more difficult to produce consistently. If the cabinet are poorly made, they can add resonances and inconsistencies beyond cross parts too. For that matter, the importance of final test should not be underestimated, a simple wiring error or loose part can undo all the best design and careful parts choices. If the speaker does not get a final test, human error can ruin everything else.

For me, this video dabbles too much and lacks focus. If it stayed on topic, it could have been more poignant in regard to what makes for better components and why it matters or not.

 

[PristineSound]

selection of a crossover component is more than specs, it is about quality too.

Yes, this point comes up very often when I converse with people, hobby, work or otherwise and not everyone have the same definition nor perspective on the definition of quality.

I view quality as a spec as well (right or wrong, absolutely debatable) but allow me to provide my explanation. Let's take MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure) as an example, to me it is a specification, because it is a quantified value that was measured. Or perhaps, a pocket knife that uses a certain steel that has less chromium content, hence it is more prone to rusting. Such "quality" of the steel is in the specification of the steel, it is quantifiable and it was measured with set amount of content/metal/mineral mixture along with the characteristic of the chemical bond and structure that resulted from a very specific forging process. Of course, not all specifications of the parts, as the ones I alluded to, are listed in the datasheet, but such "specifications" is needed and there in production of these parts.

That is my view point as to why quality should be considered as part of spec, but it indeed is not agreeable to many with excellent counter arguments, which I completely accept as well.

With regards to creating a matched speaker pair, drivers often have more variability than most crossover parts.

Absolutely true. The tolerance of the drivers certainly holds the most variability of pair matching. I have a pair of speaker matched from 300Hz to 10kHz to 1dB on mostly crossover parts with 5% tolerance.

 

[PristineSound]

For me, this video dabbles too much and lacks focus. If it stayed on topic, it could have been more poignant in regard to what makes for better components and why it matters or not.

You are right.

Though I don't think this video is Gene's attempt to explain what makes a crossover good or bad, he is explaining each part to provide basic understanding of these parts and how monetary budget and quality affect the crossover so that he can ask the question, is it worth it to upgrade the crossover in your speakers. Which is the topic of the video.

His answer is "it depends" as the start of any good answer.

 

[RickS]

[moderator off]

The video is stale but is based on an article that is over a decade old. It just seems more than a bit pointless for most people who are not going to get to see a crossover initially. Later, if an upgrade seems worthwhile, this is too shallow for a hobbyist and useless for the more technically astute.

Am more inclined to side with Andrew Robinson as you have to trust the original manufacturer. If they do not have an upgrade, who else can you trust? Danny “its all cheese” from GR? Afaik, he does not offer a full service upgrade and has mixed results even if he did. Many hobbyists are not equipped to fully test a speaker upgrade much less design one if it was not available.

So as a presenter, a primary question is who is my target audience. From my perspective, the topic has a very niche audience and may be even smaller one that is qualified to apply it. As part of the target audience, I find this video simply unsatisfying. Outside of the niche target, I see it as a complete waste of time as there is so little of it that one can truly access.

If a layperson finds a speaker they really like and it has decent measurements, seems unlikely they open it up and inspect the crossover parts. If they found questionable parts, what real options do they have? Most would either keep it or upgrade the whole speaker. This topic gets my nothing burger award as it lacks satisfying content for many audio enthusiasts.

 

[ta240]

It is easy to find capacitors and inductors with the same values; but resistance will vary, is that variance enough to change the specs of the crossover?

 

[PristineSound]

[moderator off]

The video is stale but is based on an article that is over a decade old. It just seems more than a bit pointless for most people who are not going to get to see a crossover initially. Later, if an upgrade seems worthwhile, this is too shallow for a hobbyist and useless for the more technically astute.

Am more inclined to side with Andrew Robinson as you have to trust the original manufacturer. If they do not have an upgrade, who else can you trust? Danny “its all cheese” from GR? Afaik, he does not offer a full service upgrade and has mixed results even if he did. Many hobbyists are not equipped to fully test a speaker upgrade much less design one if it was not available.

So as a presenter, a primary question is who is my target audience. From my perspective, the topic has a very niche audience and may be even smaller one that is qualified to apply it. As part of the target audience, I find this video simply unsatisfying. Outside of the niche target, I see it as a complete waste of time as there is so little of it that one can truly access.

If a layperson finds a speaker they really like and it has decent measurements, seems unlikely they open it up and inspect the crossover parts. If they found questionable parts, what real options do they have? Most would either keep it or upgrade the whole speaker. This topic gets my nothing burger award as it lacks satisfying content for many audio enthusiasts.

I personally am in full agreement here. I wouldn't buy a speaker even if all other parts are of high quality, design and craftsmanship minus the crossover. I simply would just buy a better speaker from the get go. I wouldn't trust sending my speakers to someone like Danny Ritchie to upgrade, I sure as hell ain't going to spend money on various parts of various values and do quasi-anechoic measurements to get the right design, by the time I am done, that money could of gotten me a much better overall speaker.

I would only consider this crossover upgrade path, if I was to enjoy the tinkering for the sake of tinkering.

But if I put on Gene's hat, he probably have seen more speakers in real life than I've seen on the internet, so he may come across some fringe cases, where the speaker is excellent, except for the crossover and if you can spend say 10% cost of the speaker, the return on investment may be significant. But regardless of such fringe cases, upgrading the crossover is probably not something you should recommend to the general consumer, maybe a different story for DIYers and tinkerers.

 

[dfuller]

All the parts quibbling really makes it clear to me that active crossovers are as usual the better solution. Why bother with all this stuff that affects the complex impedance curve in conjunction with the drivers and cabinet when you could just use buffered line level filters and stop worrying?

It is easy to find capacitors and inductors with the same values; but resistance will vary, is that variance enough to change the specs of the crossover?

Sometimes. ESR for solid dielectric capacitors is much lower than even the best electrolytics, so that can affect things considerably.

DCR for inductors is also a factor, wire gauge will have an effect there.

 

[AnalogSteph]

I wouldn't buy a speaker even if all other parts are of high quality, design and craftsmanship minus the crossover.

OK, don't go near the new KEF Q series then. *chuckle*

All the parts quibbling really makes it clear to me that active crossovers are as usual the better solution. Why bother with all this stuff that affects the complex impedance curve in conjunction with the drivers and cabinet when you could just use buffered line level filters and stop worrying?

Well, a good few people have found out the hard way that going purely active can have its problems, too. Sometimes throwing in a few of those pesky passives on top makes a real and positive difference:
Add some series R and/or C to keep tweeter hiss at bay if you have reached the limit of what's easily doable on XO and amplifier level. (This can get you in trouble with fundamental resonance, mind you, but there's options to tackle that.)
Add a series notch to tame woofer breakup modes (distortion peaks, potentially hiss).

 

[MaxBuck]

This colloquy raises the question of which of the following is most significant to produced sound:

1. Drivers
2. Cabinet (writ large)
3. Crossovers
4. Room and placement within

I'm guessing crossovers aren't high in importance on this list, but I'm open to persuasion otherwise.