Geithain RL 901K vs Neumann KH420

[test1223]

My take.

Gethain - A company with speakers that seem kind of difficult to get a hold of, no third party reviews with good data afaik. Some users have posted troublesome interactions with the company. The data Gethain provides looks pretty average and not at all what I would expect from such costly speakers. I get an ATC vibe from them, lot of nice cabinetry but a performance that doesn't really match the price at all with quality measurement data being practically hidden.

Neumann - Speakers are easy to get a hold of, they happily send stuff to this very site for review. Their speakers consistently show state of the art performance at what most would consider a totally reasonable price.

Why is gethain even considered? I'm really bored of these brands that do the bare minimum to show their products are competent. Hell I've learned the playbook from these companies so well I should start my own and just siphon money from people.

You don't understand the limitations of standard measurements and the limitations of the predicted preferences score!
Never the less you base your judgement on your false assumptions.

The JBL M2 has a predicted preferences score of 4.9. The JBL LSR 305mk2 has exactly the same predicted preference score. Which loudspeaker do you think is better?

The predicted preferences score is a "prediction" and therefore not the real preference. It has a lot of limitations therefore no one who understands the research, uses it like people like you do. It is only one indicator which most of the times can "expose" speakers which have a pure tonality or some resonances.

The uneducated judgement based on some amplitude frequency response measures or harmonic distortion measures is much worse compared with the predicted preferences score. This was the starting point of the research for the predicted preferences score.

The measure which is most important is the (real) preferences score which can only be obtained in a blind listening test. I have heard that all Harman Groupe speakers provide a better (real) preference score compared with some selected loudspeakers from competitors. So the M2 should be better (at least in the Harman listening room and with the test music they use) than some other similar monitors, despite the average to low predicted preferences score.

The bigger ATC and ME Geithain speakers are very well regarded by almost everyone. This is a good indicator that the real preference score is most likely quite high.

 

[Waxx]

I agree that Geithan's should be measured by people like Amir or Erin to proof what they are.

But i heared the 901K, and they are among the better speakers i heared in my life. It was in a mastering studio, where the owner also had K&H O300's as second reference (he said). I was there to repair his computer system, but he was playing music trough his system in his room, music that i know very well, and the neutral clear sound was wonderfull, and wide disperted (not a single sweetspot) but cardiod.

When i heared the D&D 8C, it worked the same way, but less clear low distortion i think, and it goes a lot less low than the 901K. But they are similar in acoustic construction and sound i think.

I can't explain how that speaker work, but they do work very well. So if anybody could measure them on a Kippel, that would be great.

 

[Purité Audio]

Obviously a full Klippel suite of measurements for every loudspeaker would be the ideal, anecdote is completely useless.
I borrowed the MEG 944k which don’t have a plate but the drivers are mounted one on top of each other ( I really wanted to hear the 901s but the only pair are on long term loan at KMR) I found them slightly less clear than the Kiis/8Cs and without the bass extension.


Keith

 

[Waxx]

I found some measurments from a Geithan 922 on gearspace. They are not the best in resolution and so, but they give an id:

Source: https://gearspace.com/board/high-end/851143-high-end-nearfield-test-110.html

 

[Puddingbuks]

Here is a test of the 944:

ME Geithain RL 944K1: Kompakter 3-Wege-Nahfeldmonitor mit koaxialem Aufbau im Test

Im kommenden Jahr wird man bei ME Geithain (Musikelectronic Geithain) das 60-jährige Firmenjubiläum feiern. Viele Firmen mit einer so langen Tradition gibt es in der Audio Branche nicht. Bedenkt man dann noch die äußerst wechselhafte Geschichte des Unternehmens aus dem kleinen Städtchen...

www.soundandrecording.de

 

[prestigetone]

Here is a test of the 944:

ME Geithain RL 944K1: Kompakter 3-Wege-Nahfeldmonitor mit koaxialem Aufbau im Test

Im kommenden Jahr wird man bei ME Geithain (Musikelectronic Geithain) das 60-jährige Firmenjubiläum feiern. Viele Firmen mit einer so langen Tradition gibt es in der Audio Branche nicht. Bedenkt man dann noch die äußerst wechselhafte Geschichte des Unternehmens aus dem kleinen Städtchen...

www.soundandrecording.de

I was going to link to this. They do not rate it highly and they are in Germany. Along with the Sound on Sound review which has some tonal coloration.

Sound and recording rates Neumann higher than anything.

In regards to measurements, they are few, and much like ATC people tend to prefer them. I know one mastering professional who traded in their 8Cs for 934k and another who dislikes Geithain in favor of Neumann or even Grimm.

In a perfect scenario the Geithains at least compete with most other brands even if they don’t measure as well. Subjectively people find their sound endearing.

The real challenge is in the service. I hope people have better luck, but at some point the speakers being as analog as they are will need servicing. How to get those beasts back to Germany for that service will take months and cost 1/4 of the speakers just in shipping alone. You want a company with robust distribution and who has replacements for parts stateside.
.

 

[Puddingbuks]

I would never consider this brand, the models I would want are big boxes with very old school technology, just like atc.

 

[rrahmanucla]

I would never consider this brand, the models I would want are big boxes with very old school technology, just like atc.

Same... For people who haven't heard speakers with proper directivity before, it can be a pretty eye opening experience jumping straight to one of the best. Neumann's are incredibly impressive in their own right, I honestly feel my KH150s are better than my KEF Reference 5's. For that reason, I am not sure that I could ever justify buying lesser known brands for the slim chance they might be better and I could hear the difference.

 

[Waxx]

I would never consider this brand, the models I would want are big boxes with very old school technology, just like atc.

Actually they are not, they are cardioid designs following the same principles as the Dutch & Dutch, using the cabinet to get a cardioid response (not with dsp like the Kii Audio's). They are big because they use big woofers. you can't put a 16" driver or so in a small cabinet, that is just basic physics. But they use a very different approach than ATC or even speakers like Neumann and Genelec who are not cardioid designs. And they are popular with a reason (that may not fit you, but fits a lot of people).

But if you like it more the Revell/Genelec style with multiple small woofers, this speaker is indeed not for you.

 

[Ktacos]

You don't understand the limitations of standard measurements and the limitations of the predicted preferences score!

Has nothing to do with anything I said. I've literally never even looked at preference scores, they are meaningless for me. Why did you even bring that up? Feels like you didn't read much of what I said and just tossed out some cool info you've learned?

My issue is a company asking crazy money for a speaker that is considerably less neutral than some of the stuff I've DIY'd. Of course because of our silly brains people make up all sorts of justifications for every speaker product, which is why you end your post with silly non-sense like "Lots of people like them" as if that means anything at all. I'd wager these brands so many like are not quite as common as one thinks. ATC for example, whens the last time you actualy used a pair at a studio? I genuinely don't see them anywhere, mostly just fancy studio pics from studios that will probably close down in a few years anyway.

I'm probably in the minority but these silly priced speakers just make me cringe. That goes for brands I even respect a lot, like genelecs latest flagship speaker or kii, great engineering and products but come on, the prices are just insane and impractical for most humans. Companies have sure done a great job of convincing people that more money is better though.

OP needs to learn stuff about speakers before spending money, because his post screams of audiophile non-sense. My desire to use this forum decreases each day as it feels it's being taken over by the same non-sense that drove me away from other places.

 

[Paffi]

Jesus

 

[drdredd]

Same... For people who haven't heard speakers with proper directivity before, it can be a pretty eye opening experience jumping straight to one of the best. Neumann's are incredibly impressive in their own right, I honestly feel my KH150s are better than my KEF Reference 5's. For that reason, I am not sure that I could ever justify buying lesser known brands for the slim chance they might be better and I could hear the difference.

I think you missed the post where i compared all these speakers! Geithain vs Neumann side by side. The Geithain made the neumann’s sound like they had a head cold and have been smoking for 20 years…
If you get a chance hear the difference!

 

[prestigetone]

I think you missed the post where i compared all these speakers! Geithain vs Neumann side by side. The Geithain made the neumann’s sound like they had a head cold and have been smoking for 20 years…
If you get a chance hear the difference!

I agree that they are best I’ve heard. At least as far as active designs go. AsciLab seems promising though. And I think anything with purifi drivers outperform the competition. This is based on research.

 

[drdredd]

Has nothing to do with anything I said. I've literally never even looked at preference scores, they are meaningless for me. Why did you even bring that up? Feels like you didn't read much of what I said and just tossed out some cool info you've learned?

My issue is a company asking crazy money for a speaker that is considerably less neutral than some of the stuff I've DIY'd. Of course because of our silly brains people make up all sorts of justifications for every speaker product, which is why you end your post with silly non-sense like "Lots of people like them" as if that means anything at all. I'd wager these brands so many like are not quite as common as one thinks. ATC for example, whens the last time you actualy used a pair at a studio? I genuinely don't see them anywhere, mostly just fancy studio pics from studios that will probably close down in a few years anyway.

I'm probably in the minority but these silly priced speakers just make me cringe. That goes for brands I even respect a lot, like genelecs latest flagship speaker or kii, great engineering and products but come on, the prices are just insane and impractical for most humans. Companies have sure done a great job of convincing people that more money is better though.

OP needs to learn stuff about speakers before spending money, because his post screams of audiophile non-sense. My desire to use this forum decreases each day as it feels it's being taken over by the same non-sense that drove me away from other places.

I think he was trying to point out that having a speaker with a ruler flat fr isn’t the end all be all of what makes a great speaker…
You say they are asking insane money… but what you aren’t taking into consideration is value. Also, a lot of money is different for different people.
I currently use diy speakers. I built the speakers, i built the amp.
I built the hardware preamps and compressor i use.
From the pcb up!
I’ve also spent quite a bit of time in the world of speaker design, as well as acoustics. I know what makes me value an amazing speaker…
I started this thread with the expectation to spend 10-14k on a set of main monitors because that is what i was prepared to spend.
And when i listened to the speakers side by side i heard the difference. If i could get the results i wanted with $500 i would have done it by now.
But i sat listened and heard the difference between all these brands and i value these results enough to spend that much.
Could be specific on what you define as audiophile non-sense?
I have tried to be as analytical and thorough as possible in my posts. I have flown across the world just to hear the differences myself because i value the results that much.
I noticed in your previous posts you mentioned getting a good night sleep. So you agree perception can and does affect results.
The speakers are the physical connection between your perception and the music. They are the window in which you view your work. Can i make amazing art on my laptop speakers? Yes.
But i have heard the limitations speakers and acoustics can put on the listening experience(especially when mixing). I am fortunate enough to have a great job that allows me to spend what i feel is appropriate on something i value!
I appreciate you standing up and saying woah that is expensive! But i can’t help but feel a lot of that cost is coming from factors like supply and demand/ distribution.
Love the discussion, don’t give up!
Kind Regards,
DrDredd

 

[drdredd]

I agree that they are best I’ve heard. At least as far as active designs go. AsciLab seems promising though. And I think anything with purifi drivers outperform the competition. This is based on research.

Those speakers look very interesting!! Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[prestigetone]

I think he was trying to point out that having a speaker with a ruler flat fr isn’t the end all be all of what makes a great speaker…
You say they are asking insane money… but what you aren’t taking into consideration is value. Also, a lot of money is different for different people.
I currently use diy speakers. I built the speakers, i built the amp.
I built the hardware preamps and compressor i use.
From the pcb up!
I’ve also spent quite a bit of time in the world of speaker design, as well as acoustics. I know what makes me value an amazing speaker…
I started this thread with the expectation to spend 10-14k on a set of main monitors because that is what i was prepared to spend.
And when i listened to the speakers side by side i heard the difference. If i could get the results i wanted with $500 i would have done it by now.
But i sat listened and heard the difference between all these brands and i value these results enough to spend that much.
Could be specific on what you define as audiophile non-sense?
I have tried to be as analytical and thorough as possible in my posts. I have flown across the world just to hear the differences myself because i value the results that much.
I noticed in your previous posts you mentioned getting a good night sleep. So you agree perception can and does affect results.
The speakers are the physical connection between your perception and the music. They are the window in which you view your work. Can i make amazing art on my laptop speakers? Yes.
But i have heard the limitations speakers and acoustics can put on the listening experience(especially when mixing). I am fortunate enough to have a great job that allows me to spend what i feel is appropriate on something i value!
I appreciate you standing up and saying woah that is expensive! But i can’t help but feel a lot of that cost is coming from factors like supply and demand/ distribution.
Love the discussion, don’t give up!
Kind Regards,
DrDredd

They’re a deal if you can get them on sale or slightly used. Vintage King has a pair of the 934k at a really good price. I think 50 percent off.

However they’re asking way too much money given the customer service after the sale. Geithain flat out detests Americans from what I’ve seen.

 

[Waxx]

I don't know if you know what Geithan is, it's a small family based company working from a small building in Geithan, a village in Saxony (Germany), south of Leipzig, with a big fanbase in Germany that gives enough bussiness to make it work for the family. Exporting to the US and setting up a support department is very hard for such a small firm and often not worth it with the sales they have.

Normally you wouldn't hear about such a brand, but they became so popular in the studio world as monitors that now you have. But there are dozens of such brands that only targeet local markets or regional markets, not worldwide domination... They don't need to export to do good bussiness, and it was not really their goal to do, so they are not set up for that.

 

[drdredd]

They’re a deal if you can get them on sale or slightly used. Vintage King has a pair of the 934k at a really good price. I think 50 percent off.

However they’re asking way too much money given the customer service after the sale. Geithain flat out detests Americans from what I’ve seen.

Something i haven't mentioned yet. My father lives in Germany! Aswell as has a native German wife. I have had emails back and forth with them. I will agree they seem reserved and secretive… but hopefully service won’t be needed for many years and when it does perhaps i can have my father drive down to Geithain and chat with them about service options.

I am hoping to demo more speakers in the soon future… the D&D seem close to what im looking for… sigberg manta are pricey but may be worth the long term service. ( they are clearly very forward in the service department, so awesome!!)
I would love a larger company for service purposes but as of right now i find the sound worth the investment!
Btw i won’t go any smaller than the RL901K. When comparing the other models with 901, it was clear that is the minimum for full range music (edm & rap included).

 

[drdredd]

I don't know if you know what Geithan is, it's a small family based company working from a small building in Geithan, a village in Saxony (Germany), south of Leipzig, with a big fanbase in Germany that gives enough bussiness to make it work for the family. Exporting to the US and setting up a support department is very hard for such a small firm and often not worth it with the sales they have.

Normally you wouldn't hear about such a brand, but they became so popular in the studio world as monitors that now you have. But there are dozens of such brands that only targeet local markets or regional markets, not worldwide domination... They don't need to export to do good bussiness, and it was not really their goal to do, so they are not set up for that.

There was a lot more history than that in my readings! I think they are a group dedicated to superior results… which happens to be what im looking for!
Regardless who they are, i heard what i heard!
If elephant butt made those results i heard from 901, best believe im setting up an elephant pin in my backyard!!!

 

[prestigetone]

I don't know if you know what Geithan is, it's a small family based company working from a small building in Geithan, a village in Saxony (Germany), south of Leipzig, with a big fanbase in Germany that gives enough bussiness to make it work for the family. Exporting to the US and setting up a support department is very hard for such a small firm and often not worth it with the sales they have.

Normally you wouldn't hear about such a brand, but they became so popular in the studio world as monitors that now you have. But there are dozens of such brands that only targeet local markets or regional markets, not worldwide domination... They don't need to export to do good bussiness, and it was not really their goal to do, so they are not set up for that.

I’m well aware of who they are. If they have no intention of supporting product outside of Germany or want to treat customers poorly, then just don’t ever sell anything to non-Germans. Their lack of packing materials for their own product just shows a disregard for their customers and they wouldn’t respond to the American distributor for weeks sometimes.

Something i haven't mentioned yet. My father lives in Germany! Aswell as has a native German wife. I have had emails back and forth with them. I will agree they seem reserved and secretive… but hopefully service won’t be needed for many years and when it does perhaps i can have my father drive down to Geithain and chat with them about service options.

I am hoping to demo more speakers in the soon future… the D&D seem close to what im looking for… sigberg manta are pricey but may be worth the long term service. ( they are clearly very forward in the service department, so awesome!!)
I would love a larger company for service purposes but as of right now i find the sound worth the investment!
Btw i won’t go any smaller than the RL901K. When comparing the other models with 901, it was clear that is the minimum for full range music (edm & rap included).

That’s big in terms of help. You could easily go through them and they can assist with the shipping etc which is easier locally.