Geithain RL 901K vs Neumann KH420

[MKR]

Hello friends!
Just finished demoing atc, psi, genelec and geithain side by side in a showroom.
It truly came down to a couple things.

I loved the atc sound BUT i didnt sound nearly as “real” as geithain. The low end had the pressure i was looking for BUT only when paired with Trinnov.
Initially i decided the atc had too much mid range, but when paired with trinnov it became somewhat of a dream speaker. Really sounded like a great speaker. However geithain sounded more real. More open. Without trinnov!! Without using them both in my studio for a while, i dont think i could make a definitive decision on which setup works better for me.
This isn’t a option though. And in order to stay in budget i would have to select the atc scm25 which when compared to the scm50 i felt sounded a bit too “closed” in presentation.
Psi sounded good but was somewhere in between atc and geithain. Real and yet still a”speaker”.
Genelec lacked the low end extension i desire.
In fact they all lacked the low end extension i desire except geithain RL901K.
So i am officially a Geithain fanboy.

Which brings me to my final decision that i could perhaps use some wisdom on.
I could purchase the RL901K brand new from geithain for somewhere around 12.5k after taxes removed.
But as mentioned in my original post, there is someone in Warsaw selling these exact speakers for 3k LESS! He said i can come listen to the speakers and ensure they are in working order…
I am tempted to save the money, however i am nervous as i do live far from Germany in case of need of repair… (still worth it in my opinion for the marvelous sound quality they are producing.)

Does anyone have experience buying used studio monitors? Should i be concerned about them breaking down?
Any advice would be welcome!
Thanks
Drdredd

Not to say Geithain would be a bad choice (they tick off a lot of boxes for me regarding my own personal preferences), but I really think you owe it to yourself to first audition D&D, GGNTKT, and Sigberg before making final decision (if I am not mistaken you have not auditioned those lines yet, but maybe I am wrong). Especially when spending this kind of money no reason to be too quick with a decision.

 

[prestigetone]

GGNTKT and sigberg would be great choices. The reason the 901s probably sound better without the trinnov is the cardioid.

 

[MKR]

GGNTKT and sigberg would be great choices. The reason the 901s probably sound better without the trinnov is the cardioid.

Good point on the cardioid, I would tend to agree. Especially do note Geithain provides LOW freq cardioid, down to ~40Hz if I am not mistaken. This is quite rare and only Geithain, Soundfield, and I think Genelec (though only with W371) has such capability. Maybe the 8381 also? Most cardioid offerings only capable to around 80Hz best case. The low freq cardiod is a game changer in my experience and a must for my end game selection (yes, it will happen, and sooner than later )

 

[prestigetone]

Good point on the cardioid, I would tend to agree. Especially do note Geithain provides LOW freq cardioid, down to ~40Hz if I am not mistaken. This is quite rare and only Geithain, Soundfield, and I think Genelec (though only with W371) has such capability. Maybe the 8381 also? Most cardioid offerings only capable to around 80Hz best case. The low freq cardiod is a game changer in my experience and a must for my end game selection (yes, it will happen, and sooner than later )

Was going to chime in when you said "no reason to be too quick with a decision," but I abstained.

 

[MKR]

Was going to chime in when you said "no reason to be too quick with a decision," but I abstained.

LOL

 

[drdredd]

Interesting… so i am hearing a recommendation on ensuring the quality of the shipment if going Geithain. Aswell as avoiding a used (10 year) product because of re-foaming? Im curious if Geithain would do a quality assurance check on this used speaker, ill email them to find out.
Very valid points, seems as though i could ensure the quality of shipment through ups parcel pro select insurance. Shipping issues seems like a sad reason not to pick a beautiful pair of speakers!
As to testing more speakers… i would love to! It is a bit difficult to set up these appointments but i will be in Europe for one more week and can most likely get in touch with these companies and hopefully get a demo!

The D&D 8c studio look very promising in terms of technology. It is cool to have that much under the hood to treat the room acoustics… however i dont mind working with room acoustics. In fact my studio is pretty well treated already!
If i have learned anything up to now though, hearing is believing!

The Sigberg look great for their high dynamic capabilities. I never pushed the geithains to the limit during the demo as i didnt want to be rude and endanger someone else's equipment! I am curious about their dual subwoofer setup. Not sure how it will react in my room though. The cardioid pattern of the geithain really seemed like a revelation to me when i was hearing such even lowend in a very small space during the demo. Lack of sbir is no small thing.

The GGNTKT looked amazing… but the model that has low end extension (compared to geithain) was 25k. Wayyy over budget! Low end is a deal breaker for me.

All in all, i will try to hear these other models if possible. Im sure a lot has happened in speaker technology since the RL901K was released. But it is difficult to keep the auditory memory. Not being able to compare the best speakers side by side makes this decision process even more difficult. Honestly though, the Geithains made such a deep emotional impression. I could bring those home to the USA and have nothing but a big ole smile on my face
Thanks again for the insights!
DrDredd

 

[prestigetone]

Shipping the 901 will be a challenge and one I wouldn't take on. You’re almost at 50 kilos. My speakers were less than half of that from Geithain directly and the damage was significant. They do not use enough packaging for their own product. Even if you triple box it or crate and palette it, that might not be enough to prevent the speaker from impacting its own box. My damage was from mostly styrofoam.

As for the refoaming, I have seen the bit they use around the cutout for the driver and it is flimsy so after ten years it might need to be redone.

The foam for the drivers themselves that allows the cone to move is also less of a rubber and more foam which I think will degrade faster over time.

The foam is less of a concern but I think you’re looking at 1k euro on up to have them refurbished and the shipping costs to Geithain won’t be insignificant.

If it were me I wouldn’t ship them unless on a plywood crate or in the back of my own car. Otherwise you’re rolling the dice.

As I said I’ve had 3-4 people in direct messages contact me about new speakers getting demolished. The dealer I contacted who had a pair of smaller speakers simply said Geithain isn’t known for secure packaging. It’s a problem they can’t be bothered to fix.

I couldn’t agree more about the quality of the speakers and their sound, but, and it’s a big but, you’re looking at 50kg box that will most likely need servicing ahead of other passive designs that can just swap out drivers for. Being outside of Germany I wouldn’t even think about 901.

None of this addresses the lack of communication and language barrier. Geithain works small hours and they will ignore you. I’ve heard this from dealers in Germany. Being an eastern German company they really have no interest in sales outside of their home country. Many companies have tried and few succeed. Ask @Purité Audio

 

[MKR]

Interesting… so i am hearing a recommendation on ensuring the quality of the shipment if going Geithain. Aswell as avoiding a used (10 year) product because of re-foaming? Im curious if Geithain would do a quality assurance check on this used speaker, ill email them to find out.
Very valid points, seems as though i could ensure the quality of shipment through ups parcel pro select insurance. Shipping issues seems like a sad reason not to pick a beautiful pair of speakers!
As to testing more speakers… i would love to! It is a bit difficult to set up these appointments but i will be in Europe for one more week and can most likely get in touch with these companies and hopefully get a demo!

The D&D 8c studio look very promising in terms of technology. It is cool to have that much under the hood to treat the room acoustics… however i dont mind working with room acoustics. In fact my studio is pretty well treated already!
If i have learned anything up to now though, hearing is believing!

The Sigberg look great for their high dynamic capabilities. I never pushed the geithains to the limit during the demo as i didnt want to be rude and endanger someone else's equipment! I am curious about their dual subwoofer setup. Not sure how it will react in my room though. The cardioid pattern of the geithain really seemed like a revelation to me when i was hearing such even lowend in a very small space during the demo. Lack of sbir is no small thing.

The GGNTKT looked amazing… but the model that has low end extension (compared to geithain) was 25k. Wayyy over budget! Low end is a deal breaker for me.

All in all, i will try to hear these other models if possible. Im sure a lot has happened in speaker technology since the RL901K was released. But it is difficult to keep the auditory memory. Not being able to compare the best speakers side by side makes this decision process even more difficult. Honestly though, the Geithains made such a deep emotional impression. I could bring those home to the USA and have nothing but a big ole smile on my face
Thanks again for the insights!
DrDredd

I had missed that you were in the US and in this case I would (sadly) avoid Geithain like the plague as @prestigetone has well recommended (and he certainly has direct experience!)

As you are in the US, I strongly recommend you also consider Soundfield, though they may be a ways out on fulfilling an order as they are extremely busy these days with many customer orders

 

[lowkeyoperations]

You know you like them.
You know you want them.
You only live once.
Go for the Geithains!

 

[prestigetone]

I missed the USA part as well. I’d recommend Neumann, Genelec or D&D 8C. D&D is going to get you closest to the sound you heard with the 901s. I have heard both. All measure exceptionally well.

Anything but Geithain. There is no network in place if something goes wrong. No warranty on the used 901s and they will be minimum $1000 to ship each way if repairs are necessary. If you really won’t go for another brand there are still some smaller Geithains at Vintage King that would have a warranty. They are good people to do business with.

I’ve gone the route you’re going and it is not advisable. The exotic draw is strong with stuff like Geithain or GGNTKT, but they just don’t have local distribution. I think that goes for Sigberg too. Even PSI requires shipment to Switzerland.

Soundfield was banned on ASR for good reason. Look up old posts and you’ll see he’s not just unsavory, but someone I would never give money to. I’ve never seen any measurements or real impressions on here sound wise.

 

[JustJones]

I have no direct knowledge but from the offerings still available from Vintage King it looks like they are getting rid of inventory. Only thing I've noticed lately is refurbished or demo/ used models. I started to buy the 934K but I refused to have them dropped shipped by UPS/FedEx I wanted them strapped to a pallet.

 

[prestigetone]

I have no direct knowledge but from the offerings still available from Vintage King it looks like they are getting rid of inventory. Only thing I've noticed lately is refurbished or demo/ used models.

The were the USA distributor for the last while. They had to stop selling for probably more than one reason, but major ones were Geithain not communication/responding to emails or calls, damage to multiple pairs of speakers from shipping, orders being incorrect and amp hissing. So yes it's the least inventory but it does have a warranty which is better than nothing or an eBay listing in Poland. This is all IIRC.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I’ve gone the route you’re going and it is not advisable. The exotic draw is strong with stuff like Geithain or GGNTKT, but they just don’t have local distribution. I think that goes for Sigberg too. Even PSI requires shipment to Switzerland.

We don't have local distribution but we do ship to the USA (DHL door-to-door).

 

[prestigetone]

We don't have local distribution but we do ship to the USA (DHL door-to-door).

Yeah DHL is the best option and most others use UPS which is a shame. What happens if something needs repair in the USA? Love Sigberg and it's nice you're so responsive on here. I am sure the Manta would be a great choice for OP.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Yeah DHL is the best option and most others use UPS which is a shame. What happens if something needs repair in the USA? Love Sigberg and it's nice you're so responsive on here. I am sure the Manta would be a great choice for OP.

In the unlikely event of a problem - I'd typically give the customer the option of either doing it themselves or locating someone local who could do it for them (we could assist with this as well). Replacing a driver or amplifier is not difficult and do not require any soldering. It is just a matter of removing bolts, unplugging - and then replacing, reattaching wires and then fastening again. So any local electronics shop or similar should be able to do it in 10 minutes.

The new part as well as the faulty part will be shipped to/from us free of charge to the customer of course, and if they were to use someone local to do the service, we'd pay for that as well.

 

[prestigetone]

Reasonable and I know others do this. Is there any risk of noticeable differences in the sound if you replace a driver? Not sure if you match the pairs when you ship. Maybe that's unnecessary.

 

[Purité Audio]

They Geithain are frustrating to deal with I contacted them with regard to perhaps representing their domestic range ( quite a few models shared between the pro and domestic ranges ) I received n initial reply but after that nothing.
Perhaps content to sell all their output within Germany ?
Keith

 

[sigbergaudio]

Reasonable and I know others do this. Is there any risk of noticeable differences in the sound if you replace a driver? Not sure if you match the pairs when you ship. Maybe that's unnecessary.

At least not any more than with any other brand or a passive speaker. Generally the drivers are well matched from the factory, but sometimes minor adjustments are made in DSP to adhere to the specs (100-10,000hz +/-1dB pair matching).

We have not had a case of a driver needing to be replaced yet, so I guess we could control measure and match it before shipping (we measure and store records of every single speaker that is shipped). In reality any unit difference is typically in the higher frequencies, were they are unlikely to have much practical impact.

EDIT: Since the speakers are active with limiters, you are not very likely to blow the drivers. So I guess the main reason for needing a replacement is if your kid sticks a scissor in it or something.

 

[prestigetone]

They Geithain are frustrating to deal with I contacted them with regard to perhaps representing their domestic range ( quite a few models shared between the pro and domestic ranges ) I received n initial reply but after that nothing.
Perhaps content to sell all their output within Germany ?
Keith

Yikes that sounds about right unfortunately. How does KMR do it then? You are both in the UK.

 

[Purité Audio]

The U.K. ‘pro’ distributor ‘lends’ the two pairs they have to KMR.
Keith