Gear evoking emotion

[Petrushka]

I listen mostly to recordings of non-amplified instruments, and hall echo is an interesting subject to me.

I have two decent, but not SOTA systems. One of them seems deficient in ambience, and the other seems exaggerated. Some day I’ll try looking at their frequency response. I’m pretty sure that’s the key.

But different mastering of the same recording could differ in apparent ambience.

 

[solderdude]

Maybe you can bring home a copy of the vinyl the store used? You could digitize it, run it through your dynamic range tool, and report back.

This could/should answer the question for OP regarding the question about 'digital' filtering out 'emotional info'.

Record the vinyl setup that 'brings emotion' and then play it back on your 'digital system'.
When the emotion response is still there on that recording then obviously it is not the 'digital' part that removes it but rather the changes the vinyl setup makes to the original recording that somewhat 'resonate' better with the listener and bring the emotional connection.

When the magic is suddenly gone (on the exact same system, level matched, not knowing if it is the recording or direct vinyl) then this would warrant further investigation.

My hunch is that recording the vinyl reproduction digitally and reproducing that the experience should be the same (when one is told it is not a recording as who knows what biases exist knowing one listens to something digital)

 

[holdingpants01]

The more I think about it, the more I hope I'll never be at the point where the reproduction type or perceived quality will determine to such degree the emotional response I get from the music I listen to

 

[antcollinet]

1:

and as I said my bias was strongly against vinyl.

That is not necessarily how perceptive bias works - it need have nothing to do with your conscious prejudices - it is a subconscious process.

2:

It was hard to pinpoint the difference soundwise,

Because the difference was not significant.

3:

so there must be an explanation to this.

There is. Your emotional response was nothing to do with the sound reaching your ears. It was to do with the event, the words and body language of the dealer (they are skilled that way**), even the gear you were looking at playing. And so on.

** I'm prepared to bet his body language (or even just his facial expression) when putting on the vinyl was significantly different than when playing the digital music. EG reverence vs perfunctory. Whatever, subconsciously you'd have had no difficulty picking up his love for the vinyl vs his disdain for digital - whether real or put on.


In summary - as @SIY said - no controls.

 

[AweLoi]

I posted this question to "Ask Paul" a couple of weeks ago and his posted his response today. He gave an interesting answer, not different from what many of you have suggested too. He is leaning towards that the noise is what does it. I like Paul. His videos can be very educational and I think his passion is real, even tough he belives in cables and all that. And now and then the salesman takes over a little to much but after all it´s his job so I don´t blame him. Anyway, here is the video:

 

[boxerfan88]

I’m also an all digital person because vinyl is cumbersome. I have been told that in general LP master is usually different from digital master.

If you do get the chance, try to capture a hires recording (eg. 192k) from the analog output of the dealer’s analog rig, and playback on your home system. I suspect you might also get the emo connection.

A long post I know, but what do you think? I really want to go to the bottom of this and understand what I experienced. I kindly ask for a civilized and open discussion. I am a science oriented guy, but in my world science must always be open to the idea that there are more things to learn and discover otherwise it's not really science.

Personally I think the noise and distortion inherent in the analog chain does play a part.

I have spent months tweaking my digital dsp chain, and I think I have arrived at quite an analog sounding chain.

If you’re familiar with foobar2000, try experimenting with these in the dsp chain:
* upsample everything to 176k or 192k
* optional insert (MathAudio Headphone EQ for manual room correction, target removal of all room resonance frequencies, reasonably flat with slightly downward tilt)
* insert AirWindows ToTape8 vst plugin (start with default settings)
* final step- add mdaDither plugin and add 3 bits of dither noise, reduce to 20bits (or 16 bits) before pushing data out to the DAC

 

[SIY]

I posted this question to "Ask Paul" a couple of weeks ago

Capital mistake. Paul is a reliably unreliable source. Incredible and usually mock-worthy dishonesty.

 

[Sokel]

This could/should answer the question for OP regarding the question about 'digital' filtering out 'emotional info'.

Record the vinyl setup that 'brings emotion' and then play it back on your 'digital system'.
When the emotion response is still there on that recording then obviously it is not the 'digital' part that removes it but rather the changes the vinyl setup makes to the original recording that somewhat 'resonate' better with the listener and bring the emotional connection.

When the magic is suddenly gone (on the exact same system, level matched, not knowing if it is the recording or direct vinyl) then this would warrant further investigation.

My hunch is that recording the vinyl reproduction digitally and reproducing that the experience should be the same (when one is told it is not a recording as who knows what biases exist knowing one listens to something digital)

I have tried it numerous times,I even have one of my favorites digitized professionally at 24/192 for safe keeping.
The specific one also has claimed master tape's copies,also on tape going around and I plan to digitize it too (I don't have an R2R but I have acces to the specific one and decks too) .

But no,the digitized copy (any of the copies I have) don't sound the same to me.Probably biased (even though sometimes I laugh because I change camps) but the digital copies does not sound like is something is missing but as if there's something more (I know it's an odd description) and this (alleged) addition does not nessecerilly sounds good to me.

Nah,I'm not going to scrutinize it (although I compare spectra all the time),vinyl is playing as I type,so...




(that's the spectra as I type,straight from the preamp output )

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have tried it numerous times,I even have one of my favorites digitized professionally at 24/192 for safe keeping.
The specific one also has claimed master tape's copies,also on tape going around and I plan to digitize it too (I don't have an R2R but I have acces to the specific one and decks too) .

But no,the digitized copy (any of the copies I have) don't sound the same to me.Probably biased (even though sometimes I laugh because I change camps) but the digital copies does not sound like is something is missing but as if there's something more (I know it's an odd description) and this (alleged) addition does not nessecerilly sounds good to me.

Nah,I'm not going to scrutinize it (although I compare spectra all the time),vinyl is playing as I type,so...


View attachment 405154

(that's the spectra as I type,straight from the preamp output )

Were your copies digitized with speakers playing like they do when you listen to vinyl? I had that come up. When making digital recordings of LP with speakers playing it then sounded the same. Some level of sonic feedback or vibrational feedback to the TT from the speakers. In this case was also going thru a vacuum tube phono so maybe that had some feedback from the speakers as well.

 

[Sokel]

Were your copies digitized with speakers playing like they do when you listen to vinyl? I had that come up. When making digital recordings of LP with speakers playing it then sounded the same. Some level of sonic feedback or vibrational feedback to the TT from the speakers. In this case was also going thru a vacuum tube phono so maybe that had some feedback from the speakers as well.

???
As far as I do it myself there's no speakers involved,just the phono straight to the interface.
I think they did the same with my professional copy (2 versions,one with decklicks and stuff,etc and one raw) .

 

[Blumlein 88]

???
As far as I do it myself there's no speakers involved,just the phono straight to the interface.
I think they did the same with my professional copy (2 versions,one with decklicks and stuff,etc and one raw) .

Well, when you listen to your vinyl, the speakers are playing and perhaps vibrating the floor. Acoustic sound from the speaker hits the vinyl disk and will get picked up by the needle at a low level with some amount of delay. Your speakers might send vibration through the floor or wall and make its way into the TT stand and on to the TT itself. So that is a different signal than if you have the TT sending signal to the phono and to an interface with no speaker vibration or acoustic feedback via the air taking place. Worth taking a track or two and recording it with speakers playing at a normal or slightly elevated volume while you record. See if that makes any difference to you.

 

[Sokel]

Well, when you listen to your vinyl, the speakers are playing and perhaps vibrating the floor. Acoustic sound from the speaker hits the vinyl disk and will get picked up by the needle at a low level with some amount of delay. Your speakers might send vibration through the floor or wall and make its way into the TT stand and on to the TT itself. So that is a different signal than if you have the TT sending signal to the phono and to an interface with no speaker vibration or acoustic feedback via the air taking place. Worth taking a track or two and recording it with speakers playing at a normal or slightly elevated volume while you record. See if that makes any difference to you.

Oh,i see what you mean now,ok.
That can be definitely happening.Even though my floor is granite tiles on concrete there's a change all kinds of vibrations to creep in.

Edit:I mean at elevated levels I can feel the impact (when there is in the recording) on me,at 2.8 m away,so much more with the TT which is only a meter and a half away.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Oh,i see what you mean now,ok.
That can be definitely happening.Even though my floor is granite tiles on concrete there's a change all kinds of vibrations to creep in.

Edit:I mean at elevated levels I can feel the impact (when there is in the recording) on me,at 2.8 m away,so much more with the TT which is only a meter and a half away.

Do this experiment carefully!

Place a record on the turntable, but DO NOT start the turntable rotating. Place the stylus on the record. CAREFULLY, turn the volume up to maximum. You should hear local building work and transport, in house sounds such as speech, boiler rumble and aircon etc.

Now imagine loud music a few feet away from the turntable.

Turntable arm and cartridge combinations are delicate seismographs.

 

[LTig]

Were your copies digitized with speakers playing like they do when you listen to vinyl? I had that come up. When making digital recordings of LP with speakers playing it then sounded the same. Some level of sonic feedback or vibrational feedback to the TT from the speakers. In this case was also going thru a vacuum tube phono so maybe that had some feedback from the speakers as well.

Yep. Years ago I experienced this at a demo of Avantgarde Acoustic Trio, where bass notes played longer than expected due to microphonic tubes in the RIAA preamp stage.

AFAIR, according to Linn Audio myth Ivor Tiefenbrun designed the LP12 suspension to prevent feedback after he found out that a TT sounded cleaner when it was placed outside of the room where the speakers played.

 

[solderdude]

I like Paul. His videos can be very educational and I think his passion is real,

Ah... grandpa Paul,

You should realize that he mixes actual info with fiction and never misses an opportunity of 'advertising' his own gear.
In most of his videos you must realize that up until he says .. Weeeelllll usually the info is decent (not always correct but mostly close to it) but after that word it is usually all nonsense... the kind of nonsense is fanbase really wants to hear.
Unless you are very familiar in (audio) electronics and know what is nonsense and what is not I would simply take everything he says with a few grains of salt.

 

[Sokel]

Do this experiment carefully!

Place a record on the turntable, but DO NOT start the turntable rotating. Place the stylus on the record. CAREFULLY, turn the volume up to maximum. You should hear local building work and transport, in house sounds such as speech, boiler rumble and aircon etc.

Now imagine loud music a few feet away from the turntable.

Turntable arm and cartridge combinations are delicate seismographs.

I like gently (REALLY gently) blowing on it when I do that,I know the trick from years ago.
The most insensitive one I have ever encounter is a 1970 (?) EMT professional one,this thing has its own rack and one can't move it.
A collector friend has few of those,some half rack,some full (only one in use,it's a pure collection thing,not audio)

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I used to work on professional EMT turntables. They made some really interesting choices when it came engineering and design.

 

[Killingbeans]

Not sure I understand. Would you like to explain further?

Extreme risk of cognitive bias.

 

[Palladium]

Not really, unless you want to be specific about which ways OLED is superior, OLED has its own issues. You're choosing which problems to deal with.

OLED phones I have all owned always had inaccurate blacks at very low brightness levels, which causes smearing in dark scenes which is ironically far more visibly annoying than "low contrast" IPS LCDs with perfectly calibrated black levels like my Acer XB273U or even my cheap old Xiaomi phones.

 

[MattHooper]

So, this is going to be quite a long post because I want to give as much details as possible before I get feedback because I would really love to hear different theories about an experience I had recently that made me question measurements. Or at least to some extent. I want to figure out what I experienced.

I have been an avid believer of measurements, basically because it makes sense. I have a decent hifi setup consisting of a pair of DIY Troels Gravendsen Revelator 851 speakers that are really good. Well balanced, very transparent etc. Probably would cost 20k-30k if they were a commercial product. I use an Audiophonics HPA-S400ET Purifi class D power amp paired with an Accuphase C-2150 preamp. At the time of this event I had a Vincent DAC-1MK and a MiniDSP Studio with Volumio as source. This system sounded quite good. Good soundstage, great details and separation of instruments etc, but I always felt something was missing. I did not feel moved emotionally by the music the way I would have liked to.

So I went to a dealer here in northern Sweden that had a decent listening room and asked him to show me some good products and to discuss with me what I could do as my next step. I made clear to him that I was not interested in vinyl since it is too inconvenient. Also I do have a decent vinyl setup at home (Rega P6 turntable, ClearAudio MC pickup and EAR 834P RIIA with Lundhal step up transformers) that I bought because I had a romanticized idea based on childhood memories. I quickly realized that it did not sound any better than my digital setup and was mostly a hassle and had all the clicks and pops that comes with vinyl so I stopped using it pretty much completely after a while.

The dealer played some music on his system and it sounded good, but not better than what I had at home already. His system consisted of a pair of Hörning Eufrodite speakers (that cost 27k and I think my speakers sound somewhat better to be honest), a TEAC AP-701 power amp (NCore class d, 35k), TEAC UD-701N preamp with built in DAC (41k) and a Lindemann Limetree streamer (9k). Prices are for the Swedish market so might vary, but you get the idea.

After a couple of hours of talking and listening the dealer told me that now when I had listened to my digital stuff he wanted to show me what he likes about hifi and put on a LP on his vinyl setup going through the same preamp, power amp and speakers. I had no idea at that time what the components in the vinyl setup cost and as I said my bias was strongly against vinyl. But from the first note of music my jaw dropped. I had never heard music move me emotionally in that way. I was completely stunned. It sounded so beautiful. It did not sound any more detailed, or had a better soundstage or anything like that but somehow the music went straight to the heart. It was hard to pinpoint the difference soundwise, but it was so much more emotional. I got goosebumps and it just sounded amazing.

I asked him to put on the same song digitally (Qobus) and while it sounded good, it was a night and day difference emotionally. I did not do a blind test (no point since the pops and clicks from the LP would have spoiled it anyway) nor did I do any volume matching, but changing volume made no difference. The emotion was there no matter the volume, and the difference compared to the digital version was not subtle, it was night and day.

After I came back home I could not stop thinking about this. That emotion I had experienced was the missing piece, it was what I had been looking for. In my amazement I forgot to ask the dealer what gear he had used so I emailed him the day after and asked. It turned out to be pretty expensive top notch gear. Gold Notes top turntable Mediterraneo X (12k), with Gold Note Machiavelli Gold pickup (3.6k) and a Gold Note PH-1000 Lite phono stage (7.2k). Very expensive stuff it turned out, but it certainly sounded better than anything I had heard.

This experience turned everything I thought I knew about Hifi upside down. A format that measures worse than digital blew digital out of its socks completely.

The interesting thing here is that this source went through the same preamp and NCore class D power amp from TEAC so this tells me that a good measuring class D amp like NCore, Purifi etc, can pass through the emotion I am looking for. Many audiophiles despise class d but for me this proved that good class d is very good indeed. So what is going on here from a technical point of view? This really messes with my mind trying to understand what I experienced and I want to hear what you guys think. I don´t believe in some hifi magic so there must be an explanation to this.

I know some of you will say that I didn´t blind test or volume match and think the case is closed because of that. So be it, but it certainly is not a closed case for me. The difference was so big that it just blew my mind. So for the sake of argument, let's assume there was a noticeable difference in favor of the vinyl setup, what could be the cause of that difference?

I really don't think it has anything to do with digital being inferior. Perhaps some of you are familiar with the MoFi scandal? Analog purists for decades happily went to MoFi for analog audiophile LP recordings but then it leaked that they use digital DSD processing before pressing and the purists are in shambles.

My first thought was that perhaps the streaming services are not as lossless as they claim. So I bought a digital lossless copy of the album. It was the album “Thank God we left the garden” by Jeffrey Martin by the way. The song we listened to was “Red Station Wagon”. It did not convey the same emotion in my system at least, even though I used a lossless file. It is possible that it is my system or room that is the problem and that it might have sounded better in the dealers room.

My second idea was loudness wars. Some of you might know that there was a huge problem in the 90s and early 2000s that studios made albums “hotter” by increasing loudness so that their songs would stand out as louder on radio and CD than the competition. This process meant heavy compressing, killing the life and dynamics of the music, especially noticeable on a good system. LP often had a different master since LP was never part of the loudness wars and could sound much better than the digital version because of this. Even though this problem is not as common any more since there were reactions after some time and when streaming became popular the streaming services normalized the volume anyway and it became pointless. However some digital masters are still worse than their analog counterparts. I checked the dynamic range on the digital album I bought (I uploaded it here: https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/212351) but it looks quite ok. I do not know what the dynamic range is on the LP version though. But I suspect this might not be the reason why the LP sounded so much better, but it is possible that it could be.

My third idea was the inter-sample issue that many DACs have. A problem that is rarely measured but can cause a lot of distortion. The problem is still quite common and it is discussed here for anyone who are interested:

I don´t know if the TEAC Dac had this issue or not, but I do know that I do not have that issue in my system since MiniDSP fixed that problem in their products in 2023. If this was the problem why doesn't the song sound as emotional in my system?

One possibility could be that the dealer's DAC had this problem and even though my system does not, I might have other problems holding the sound quality back in my system. I do know that I have some room issues. I have my system in my living room so there is a lot of furniture and stuff and very little room treatment. I only use Dirac to correct things but Dirac cannot solve a dip in the bass of almost 10db (which I have).

A fourth possibility is that the measurements are missing something. It is not impossible since the inter-sample issue went under the radar for a long time and still does. I do not think Amir measures it either, so what else could we be missing in measurments?
Perhaps good capacitors, resistors, linear power supplies, clean power, cables etc do make some difference that we can hear (as many audiophiles claim) but we don't measure it properly? This experience with the dealer's analog system certainly has made me reconsider some of the claims made in the audiophile world but there might be a simpler explanation too that I am missing.

A long post I know, but what do you think? I really want to go to the bottom of this and understand what I experienced. I kindly ask for a civilized and open discussion. I am a science oriented guy, but in my world science must always be open to the idea that there are more things to learn and discover otherwise it's not really science.

I think what you have to be very careful with here is the type of mistake many audiophiles and audio reviewers make, which is to impute your own reaction to the equipment itself.

It’s clear you had an emotional reaction. I get that because I experience that. But it’s generally a mistake to attribute the “ emotion, producing quality” as if it’s some intrinsic quality of the gear. The emotion is coming from you not the gear. Some other audiophile may hear what you heard and think it was offputting and have no emotional connection. So it’s in the individual not the piece of gear.

Making this type of mistake is how many people have gone down the wrong rabbit hole I’m trying to figure out “ why isn’t digital musical!”
And you get people going into bogus pseudoscientific explanations for “ why digital can’t sound satisfying and natural.” While completely ignoring that most listeners find it entirely musically satisfying.

As to why you had your particular emotional reaction to that vinyl set up, that’s hard to say. It could be any combination of factors from actually hearing particular new sound that you liked, to some other bias factors going on that you weren’t aware of.

Having said all that, I certainly understand having emotional reactions to music played on equipment, but not others. And I should say that this is when I am in more audiophile mode than strict “ music listening mode.” Which means I am paying attention to the system’s way of portraying the music.

I can sit in front of some very expensive systems and not feel a thing musically. And then I can sit in front of other systems or even some cheaper systems that are doing “ something” that I find more engaging and then I will have a hard time getting my butt off the seat because I just wanna keep listening and listening. Sounds like you had one of those experiences.

As it happens I also have those type of experiences playing vinyl on my system… having gone down the rabbit hole of buying a “ high-end” turntable you can see HERE

And I also find my tube amps you can see in
THIS PHOTO also seem to connect me to the music through my system. More than other amplifiers I’ve used.

The thing is, it’s hard to know for sure what proportion might be a personal bias effect versus the actual sound. It could be all bias effect or some mix. And these cases an individual can decide for himself how much that matters or not.

As some have pointed out, this type of thing can send you off down rabbit holes, or on a wild goose chase, where you are chasing some emotional connection in gear which may be hard to pin down because so much of it is just coming from yourself. And that’s one reason why it’s good to listen to many of the folks here, if you are making a mistake in ascribing it to some objective technical factors in the gear.

On the other hand, if you just find yourself swooning when you use a certain type of gear that doesn’t happen for others, even if you don’t figure out exactly why, if it’s a reliable experience, then you may just say
“ whatever is going on, it’s worth it for me to buy this gear.”

I’m incredibly happy with my system, I don’t necessarily need to have figured out every single aspect as to why it affects me as it does but it effortlessly engages me. But you’ll find the same for other people who went down other routes, such as the one you may find people advising you on here.

Nothing wrong with getting into vinyl though