Gain setup on active monitors

[Miguelón]

Hello! I have a pair of active studio monitors in a small room for home listening.

Normally 70-75 dB is my listening confort level, I set my speakers (Neumann KH 80 DSP) on 94 dB output level (the minimum they offer), and minimum gain of -15 dB.

Since my interface (Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 4th) has an output line of +10 dB, my total SPL should be +10 dB -15 dB +94 dB = 89 dB, more than enough to my purposes.

And also the lesser the gain the higher the fidelity as I remember also form my little electronic formations.

I’m right on my settings and thoughts to have the best performance of my speakers (apart from room corrections) or I am missing something?

Thanks a lot!

 

[dfuller]

Hello! I have a pair of active studio monitors in a small room for home listening.

Normally 70-75 dB is my listening confort level, I set my speakers (Neumann KH 80 DSP) on 94 dB output level (the minimum they offer), and minimum gain of -15 dB.

Since my interface (Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 4th) has an output line of +10 dB, my total SPL should be +10 dB -15 dB +94 dB = 89 dB, more than enough to my purposes.

And also the lesser the gain the higher the fidelity as I remember also form my little electronic formations.

I’m right on my settings and thoughts to have the best performance of my speakers (apart from room corrections) or I am missing something?

Thanks a lot!

I mean, you have a volume control on your interface. Just set your volume there. If running the speakers at unity gain/94dB doesn't give you enough control, then sure - reduce the gain at the speaker input.

 

[bungle]

I usually reduce gain a bit so that speakers don’t hiss without signal audibly from the distance I think it is annoying. Genelecs especially seem to be quite sensitive at max (factory default) and do hiss. Subwoofer I need to reduce even more, perhaps because of room/listening position.

 

[Miguelón]

I mean, you have a volume control on your interface. Just set your volume there. If running the speakers at unity gain/94dB doesn't give you enough control, then sure - reduce the gain at the speaker input.

My question was more about audio quality. In general I prefer how the amplifiers sound at lowest gain if is enough for achieving the target volume raising the signal strength on the interface.

If there’s no formal inconvenient to keep the interface volume knob all time at 75-80% or more, I will continue with my -15 dB.

As I believe, don’t completely sure, the line output of an interface is at 0 level at his maximum volume and - infinity at his minimum: the volume knob is only an attenuator.

 

[Lambda]

Since my interface (Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 4th) has an output line of +10 dB, my total SPL should be +10 dB -15 dB +94 dB = 89 dB, more than enough to my purposes.

You mix up or ignore dB SPL and dBV or dBU

But otherwise your fine.

Set your monitors as loud as you need to that you can still achieve your required listing level with the interface and your good

 

[Miguelón]

You mix up or ignore dB SPL and dBV or dBU

But otherwise your fine.

Set your monitors as loud as you need to that you can still achieve your required listing level with the interface and your good

I think mixing up and ignoring, all at the same time

Ancient pianist (acoustic), actually rediscovering piano on a digital Kawai, but no formation in electronics.

The only thing I notice is that my piano sound better (more like a piano) when using the monitors at lowest gain and increased piano line output than at high gain and lower piano output volume, and I thought that probably is because amplification is not perfectly linear and changes sound tonality as going up.

The Neumanns are for pleasure listening, and for the Kawai piano, I don’t need a reference level whatsoever.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[boxerfan88]

my typical listening level is approx 75dBA.

I have my kh310 setup at 94dB & vol knob at 0dB.

I control volume at the source (foobar). my DAC also has volume control but i don’t use it.

 

[Miguelón]

my typical listening level is approx 75dBA.

I have my kh310 setup at 94dB & vol knob at 0dB.

I control volume at the source (foobar). my DAC also has volume control but i don’t use it.

Thanks for the info!
Perhaps is a psychoacoustic effect in my case, lowing gain enhances mids so I perceive lot of details on strings and winds but lose bass, probably is not very clever to go as low on the amplifier.

I will try 0 dB for a while, at the moment I’m using only one speaker because the other is under returning (transport damages): not an ideal situation for analyzing the sound.

By the way, I purchased also one KH 120 ii and I’m surprised how different they sound: I red on reviews that Neumann’s tonality was very consistent in all the lineup

 

[Miguelón]

I mean, you have a volume control on your interface. Just set your volume there. If running the speakers at unity gain/94dB doesn't give you enough control, then sure - reduce the gain at the speaker input.

How can I measure unity gain? The interface should give 4 volts RMS and this is unity gain once adjusted volume knob with a multimeter or is just at the max of the volume knob? Thanks!

(I always supposed that volume knob was an attenuator, but reading Amir’s review of my interface apparently SINAD get worse at max and improves some dBu lower)

 

[Lambda]

or https://www.neumann.com/globalassets/digizuite/15360-en-monitors-faq-kh-80-dsp-answers_en.pdf

In general you should keep the gain settings at the monitor as low as possible ( e.g. Gain
pot max, Output Gain 94 or 100 dB SPL) and the level of your source as high as possible to
get to the best S/N ratio and keep induced disturbances as low as possible

 

[Miguelón]

or https://www.neumann.com/globalassets/digizuite/15360-en-monitors-faq-kh-80-dsp-answers_en.pdf

Let me understand what the “charismatic” boy are saying (I tried to don’t fall asleep till arriving to sensitivity part): “+4 dBu usually corresponds to balanced connections and -10 dBV goes with unbalanced connections”

He’s a little bit lost: +4 dBu is a signal of 1.2 Volts approximately, and by conventions is the alignment voltage to -20 dBFS in order to reserve 24 dB free to equalize and mix without going over +24 dBu which is the maximum input voltage tolerated by professional gear.

Actually most balanced outputs goes to 4 Volts or more, way over +4 dBu, and unbalanced DACs give RCA outputs with 2 Volts (aka 8.2 dBu or something line that, way over -10 dBV which are -7.8 dBu).

General rule: if you have a DAC (balanced or unbalanced) you’re going to a maximum output from 8 to 14 dBu approx. Setting sensitivity to -10 dBV is a guarantee to saturate the monitor amplifier: don’t use it unless you have a monitor control or an attenuator, you can listen to electrons jumping between atoms…

Post edited: -10 dBV make sense in an epoch which DACs had 1 volt outputs, CD players…
Now is just somehow archeological voltage

Post re-edited: well, -6 dBu or -10 dBV can perhaps persist in some line outputs. I don’t know if you connect a smartphone or a CD player directly to a monitor… this can explain why my Genelec 8030C has a by default sensitivity of -6 dBu (106 dB @ 1V rms), perhaps clients connected an ipod to the monitor and complained about not being able to break their tympanic membrane with the monitors…

 

[Lambda]

dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbf

dB dBu dBFS digital audio conversion dBV from dBu to volt, dBV to volt, volt to dBu and dBV dB decibels calculation SPL 0 dBFS normal decibels relationship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter attenuation ratio reference convert...

sengpielaudio.com

I tried to don’t fall asleep till arriving to sensitivity part)

this is why why i included a timestamp.

He’s a little bit lost:

Bolt statement...

+4 dBu is a signal of 1.2 Volts approximately, and by conventions is the alignment voltage to -20 dBFS in order to reserve 24 dB free to equalize and mix without going over +24 dBu which is the maximum input voltage tolerated by professional gear.

What convention? Good thing is there is so many of them.

BTW "+4 dBu is a signal of 1.2 VRMS" is only true for a sinewave (or a wave wit he same crest valeu) Else its more like 3.5V peak to to peak

 

[Miguelón]

dB dBu dBFS dBV to volts audio conversion digital - calculator volt to dBu and dBV dB mW SPL dB decibels 0 dBFS - convert dB volt normal decibels relatioship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbf

dB dBu dBFS digital audio conversion dBV from dBu to volt, dBV to volt, volt to dBu and dBV dB decibels calculation SPL 0 dBFS normal decibels relationship relation explanation analog audio absolute level true rms convertor converter decibel to dbfs converter attenuation ratio reference convert...

sengpielaudio.com

this is why why i included a timestamp.


Bolt statement...


What convention? Good thing is there is so many of them.

BTW "+4 dBu is a signal of 1.2 VRMS" is only true for a sinewave (or a wave wit he same crest valeu) Else its more like 3.5V peak to to peak

Europe convention IIRC, -20 dBFS to +4 dBu…

What I found boring was the tone of his voice, not the content.

Anyway, sine wave or whatever other music, -10 dBV and +4 dBu are not significantly balanced vs unbalanced sensitivity.

The first is -12 dBu lesser than the second, difference between balanced and unbalanced signal is just 6 dBu (half the voltage)

Is not by random -12 dBu is quarter of voltage, is meant to be used with 1 V signals that are unusual now.

2nd part of the scale, at right, is not used actually…

Post edited: … fortunately: is a nightmare to express units in two different systems, but apart from that inconvenient current DACs use 2 V or 4 V outputs which are inconsistent with -6 dB (Genelec units) or 106 dB (Neumann) sensitivity. I think they use it to avoid complains from clients, that makes uncontrollable digital volume steps in majority of systems. To be coherent, I use +4 dB level in my Genelec 8030C (pro) with my WiiM Ultra (home), this way I can match 8 dBu max output in WiiM with 104 dB max SPL on Genelecs, using volume knob or remote in a fine tuning levels.

 

[Lambda]

-10 dBV and +4 dBu are not significantly balanced vs unbalanced sensitivity.

And he says "Generally used for"

Europe convention IIRC, -20 dBFS to +4 dBu…

There are many conventions...
And i Doubt you find Many gear especially speakers that give you 20dB of headroom with a 4dBu signal.

24dBu is 12VRMS or 35Vpp

A typical Audio Amp has 24-30dB of Gain
This would be 10kW @ 4Ohm

, difference between balanced and unbalanced signal is just 6 dBu (half the voltage)

There is no Universial rule for this and especial no universal adoption of this.
The 2Vrm for RCA and 4Vrms for XLR is relatively new and and high end niche development.

What do you think why Hi-fi Amps have Gains in the order of 30dB ?! because this consumer RCA signals used to super low for some devices.

fortunately: is a nightmare to express units in two different systems, but apart from that inconvenient current DACs use 2 V or 4 V outputs which are inconsistent with -6 dB (Genelec units) or 106 dB (Neumann) sensitivity.

And then you Start to leaf the unit completely away and only say: -6 dB (Genelec units) or 106 dB (Neumann) sensitivity.

 

[DVDdoug]

The general rule for "gain staging" is to have the hottest signal possible* without distortion for the best signal-to-noise ratio and then adjust/turn-down the volume at the last volume control in the chain. But if that "last" volume control is on the back of your monitors that's not practical. So, maybe the last practical volume control, or whatever is convenient.

If you are getting hiss from the monitors themselves (with nothing connected) and if the control on the monitors reduces the hiss, turn-down that control and if your setup goes loud enough for you, you're good-to-go.

My question was more about audio quality. In general I prefer how the amplifiers sound at lowest gain if is enough for achieving the target volume raising the signal strength on the interface.

Not exactly...

If the signal is too high you can get distortion. If you try to get 110W out of a 100W amplifier you get clipping (squared-off waves which is the most common kind of distortion). The same thing happens if try to get too much signal/voltage out of a preamp or other circuit,

Regular (integer) digital is hard-limited to 0dBFS and you can get digital clipping if you try to go over. Usually that only happens if the source is clipped or if you're boosting the bass (or boosting something) with digital EQ. Or some software like VLC Player can be adjusted over 100% and digitally clip.

If the signal is too low, noise can be a problem. At low signal levels you are more likely to hear noise. When the signal is "loud" the noise is usually masked (drowned out). But even if you are listening loud, the noise may become audible during quiet parts or during silence between songs, etc.

Depending on where the volume control is in the signal chain, the signal and noise are usually turned up-and-down together, and that's good! But if the noise is generated in the power amplifier (including the amp in an active speaker) that noise is generally coming-in after the volume control and it doesn't get turned down.



* In a professional studio there are analog dB level standards so you wouldn't boost the levels higher, even if you can get higher levels without distortion.

 

[Miguelón]

And he says "Generally used for"

There are many conventions...
And i Doubt you find Many gear especially speakers that give you 20dB of headroom with a 4dBu signal.

24dBu is 12VRMS or 35Vpp

A typical Audio Amp has 24-30dB of Gain
This would be 10kW @ 4Ohm

There is no Universial rule for this and especial no universal adoption of this.
The 2Vrm for RCA and 4Vrms for XLR is relatively new and and high end niche development.

What do you think why Hi-fi Amps have Gains in the order of 30dB ?! because this consumer RCA signals used to super low for some devices.



And then you Start to leaf the unit completely away and only say: -6 dB (Genelec units) or 106 dB (Neumann) sensitivity.

Alignment level is written in the table you sent me, is on yellow at bottom.

That means in your audio interface -20 dBFS should provide +4 dBu in a pure sine wave. Is aligned at that level, you establish a limit to don’t make mixing consoles clipping. If you look at specs of any amp or preamp, console etc. you’ll find that the maximum admitted input is +24 dBu…

That doesn’t mean that your amp unit can make sound +24 dBu at +4 sensitivity at all, just means that the input admission will clip at this level to protect electronics. Is kind of a maximum voltage, and provides a link between digital volume and analogue volume in order to handle standard level.

After the final process of a mix and production, the file is normalized.

“relatively new” is not true, 8030C is a speaker from 2017, at this year all home gear overcomes the -6 dB sensitivity by far…

If you look to review in Amir’s section, you’ll realize that the two main complaints about the speaker are excessive sensitivity and hiss. Even +6 dB (94 dB SPL at 1 m @ 1V rms) is too much.

If you can find an actual DAC (apart from dongles) or an audio interface that gives 1V signal output, please give me the information, because one thing I struggle about is that excess of sensitivity.

Neumann units, Genelec units, are the same: expressed form dB SPL at 1 m @ 1 Vrms or from dBu to 100 dB SPL at 1 m

I will end my intervention by my advice to use +4 dB sensitivity either on balance or unbalanced cable, simple and logic. But if you want to use -10 dBV with your RCA cables enjoy the noise

AFAIC the case is closed

 

[Miguelón]

The general rule for "gain staging" is to have the hottest signal possible* without distortion for the best signal-to-noise ratio and then adjust/turn-down the volume at the last volume control in the chain. But if that "last" volume control is on the back of your monitors that's not practical. So, maybe the last practical volume control, or whatever is convenient.

If you are getting hiss from the monitors themselves (with nothing connected) and if the control on the monitors reduces the hiss, turn-down that control and if your setup goes loud enough for you, you're good-to-go.


Not exactly...

If the signal is too high you can get distortion. If you try to get 110W out of a 100W amplifier you get clipping (squared-off waves which is the most common kind of distortion). The same thing happens if try to get too much signal/voltage out of a preamp or other circuit,

Regular (integer) digital is hard-limited to 0dBFS and you can get digital clipping if you try to go over. Usually that only happens if the source is clipped or if you're boosting the bass (or boosting something) with digital EQ. Or some software like VLC Player can be adjusted over 100% and digitally clip.

If the signal is too low, noise can be a problem. At low signal levels you are more likely to hear noise. When the signal is "loud" the noise is usually masked (drowned out). But even if you are listening loud, the noise may become audible during quiet parts or during silence between songs, etc.

Depending on where the volume control is in the signal chain, the signal and noise are usually turned up-and-down together, and that's good! But if the noise is generated in the power amplifier (including the amp in an active speaker) that noise is generally coming-in after the volume control and it doesn't get turned down.



* In a professional studio there are analog dB level standards so you wouldn't boost the levels higher, even if you can get higher levels without distortion.

Thanks for advice, at the time I posted that I didn’t know a lot of things…

Now I learned and make a bunch of experiments with preamp, digital clipping (sounds very interesting), simulation of harmonic distrotion.

Here in ASR there is a very interesting article about signal chain and propagation of noise and harmonics, but I struggle to find it again.

In the practical case of studio monitors, that are quite standard or at least more than home amps or active speakers, general practice is 94-96 dB sensitivity or +4 dB in Genelec case. Ideally to XLR 4 volts sources would be nice to have 86 to 88 dB setting or +12-14 dB but it is what it is…

The fact that usually natural devices to connect to studio monitors are audio interfaces with an attenuator (or a preamp, but I think volume knob is just passive, may I open mine to see one of this days), make easier to setup.

 

[Lambda]

That means in your audio interface -20 dBFS should provide +4 dBu in a pure sine wave.

So then show me all the audio interfaces that do +4dBu at -20dBFS.

-6 dB sensitivity

How doses -6dB sensitivity make any sense?

Even +6 dB (94 dB SPL at 1 m @ 1V rms) is too much.

86 to 88 dB setting or +12-14 dB

Waht are you even trying to say with this?

dB WAHT?!

you realize Most studio monitors have Attenuator?

 

[Blumlein 88]

24 dbu is only 3.1 volts. If that is 0 dbFS that isn't so much for balanced gear.

 

[Miguelón]

24 dbu is only 3.1 volts. If that is 0 dbFS that isn't so much for balanced gear.

24 dBu is 12.27 volts