Future DIY Speaker Testing Strategy?

[Neddy]

I'd love to see a DIY M2 compared to the real thing, but don't expect that's likely to happen.
What is your backlog of electronics vs. speakers 'in house' yet to be tested?
Hope you're not running out of things to test!

 

[Biblob]

Personally I would like to see more DIY systems. Even though we will be more limited because of the fact Amir lives in the US.
Never before is has been possible to test your own/proven DIY speakers in this accuracy, so I think it would be a real miss if this oppurtinity would not be made use of.

 

[GXAlan]

I'd love to see a DIY M2 compared to the real thing, but don't expect that's likely to happen.
What is your backlog of electronics vs. speakers 'in house' yet to be tested?
Hope you're not running out of things to test!

The PBN M2!5 is an interesting one as it combines the M2 with a vintage woofer and nicer cabinet. Out of reach for most as it is more than double the cost of a 4367.

Where DIY would be interesting would be to build a 4367/M2 around a vertical horn, or a smaller 12” version.

DIY is good for
- Lower cost speakers by removing markup/distribution/cost of assembly

But a big challenge is that the big companies have economies of scale that we don’t have. So DIY also has to be about spending more than off the shelf speakers to get
- exotic topologies that may have tradeoffs that are bad commercially but correct for your personal use (bigger enclosures, sealed vs ported)
- mix and match (I.E. a 12” M2 or a S3100 with the 2216Nd woofer)
- enhanced furniture craftsmanship (the veneer or paint quality)

One unknown is vintage speakers with modern EQ or modern crossovers (both analog and digital). That is also a DIY possibility. I have sent Amir an XPL90 to test.

 

[Dj7675]

I have sent Amir an XPL90 to test.

This will be interesting to see the results.

 

[kokishin]

Hello everyone. Need feedback on where to go on DIY speaker testing.

Thanks to effort and initiative member @Winkleswizard took and funding on my part we managed to build, test and review a couple of designs. Question is, where to go from here. Funding is the issue for future kits and outbound shipping costs (I pay for return shipping). I can think of a few options but open to others:

1. We stop here and focus on commercial products. Of course, someone may have a DIY speaker that they send it for testing and indeed one is planned that way already (local source).

2. Some of you purchase the kits and we see if @Winkleswizard has the resources to build and send it to me for testing.

3. A few people get together and fund the purchase of new kits to be tested. You can donate the money to me, I will collect and send to @Winkleswizard to buy and build.

4. You all lean on kit makers to send them in for evaluation (built or not built).

I think our DIY testing has been successful in generating good data since we can deeply examine their components and designs unlike commercial products. So I am happy to continue to invest the time to test them and pay for return shipping wherever they need to go. Need a group effort for the rest of the expense.

Open to any other options.

While typing this, let me thank @Winkleswizard for the leadership he took to get us here and the work he has put in to get us the samples we tested. I look to him to lead the selection of what we test in the future since I am not up on what is popular and what is not in DIY world.

Amir, perhaps this kind of thread would be useful if restated as a poll thread?

Besides voting, folks can post their reasons for how they voted.

 

[GXAlan]

This will be interesting to see the results.

Yes. Almost $1500/pair in 1989 dollars. Hopefully the ferrofluid is still good.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ja-loudspeaker-measurements-page-2

“Fig.3: The speakers in this group are all superbly flat; in fact, the frequency-weighted standard deviation of the top nine models is lower than that of our B&K microphone. The champion when it comes to midrange and treble flatness is the little JBL XPL-90.”

 

[Jon AA]

Leaning on the kit providers works best imo.

I think so too. It would be a great opportunity for exposure--provided they measure somewhat decently. A lot of kits may not and those manufacturers may want to run at the sight of a Klippel!

For the manufacturers of well designed kits who may be interested, maybe the best approach is for them to find customers who would be willing to send one in (or live close to Seattle). I would guess most of these guys keep tabs on some of their customers and could probably identify a few candidates who they know are experienced or have posted build threads and/or taken measurements such that the manufacturer was satisfied the speaker is a representative example (not built wrong).

 

[Prana Ferox]

Agreeing with Jon AA here. I think your best bet is finding enthusiasts in the Seattle area or at least PNW who will hand-carry the units in. Certainly right now I can see people not wanting to a) go to a public shipping store to b) ship their high-effort work off for untold time, especially since c) they're often really big and heavy but also delicate.

Probably worth asking on other forums, too.

 

[Fluffy]

Commercial products are more relevant to most people. I think you should first cover a wide range of commercial products before delving into DIY.

 

[LDKTA]

Options 1 and 4.

 

[Worth Davis]

I think if you took up a collection for the build and builder you would get the funds or an offer to ship a completed speaker. I would like to see some of the more popular, ready to go kits get the ASR treatment. I would ship my Linkwitz 521 to you...but I think it would cost us about a grand with the amps and ASP as well...

 

[amirm]

I'd love to see a DIY M2 compared to the real thing, but don't expect that's likely to happen.
What is your backlog of electronics vs. speakers 'in house' yet to be tested?
Hope you're not running out of things to test!

My backlog runs around 4 weeks all the time. it is maybe a bit better than it was a couple of weeks ago but no shortage of speakers or electronics to test.

 

[amirm]

I would ship my Linkwitz 521 to you...but I think it would cost us about a grand with the amps and ASP as well...

A couple of members have them locally. So once the pandemic calms down, it may be possible to test them.

 

[Sal1950]

I would only say to be careful on the approach, etc.
Don't want the line to be blurred between your measurement service, and a speaker designer or builder.
I think you probably remember what happened with Peter Aczel and the Audio Critic?

 

[amirm]

I think you probably remember what happened with Peter Aczel and the Audio Critic?

What happened?

 

[Sal1950]

What happened?

As I remember it, while the AC was being published, he had a lot of input to the design of a speaker that I can't remember the name of now.
He had talked about it in the magazine, it was no secret, but then he was foolish enough to review it, and give it a rave.
Between a rock and a hard place, why would you be involved in building a product you didn't like, right?
But that just ain't gonna get it with the public, he was crucified by the haters, subjectives, and other HiFi media writers. LOL

That was easy, the speaker was the Fourier 1. Just a bit of searching found the below Steven Stone article. Years after the actual event, Stone couldn't resist using the occasion of Peter's retirement to bash him over the head with it once more. LOL

"Also the problem of credibility as a result of Aczel's rave review of the Fourier 1 speaker, which he designed, didn't help matters. Sure, he mentioned that he had a hand in the design, but why not let one of his other writers do that review? Why, indeed..."
https://audiophilereview.com/audiophile-news/on-peter-aczels-retirement.html

 

[Dogan]

A couple of members have them locally. So once the pandemic calms down, it may be possible to test them.

Seeing the word pandemic in a topic about loudspeakers made me wonder about the natural frequency response of Corona virus

 

[bluefuzz]

The interest in demand for measurements of commercial speakers is undoubtedly much, much larger than demand for DIY speakers.

Undoubtedly? You have numbers to back up such a claim?

The DIY crowd is a small subset of the audiophile crowd.

Depending on how you define 'audiophile' I would guess the DIY segment is quite sizable within the audiophile community in one form or another. It's not many years since it was pretty much synonymous. However, since the advent of digital technologies, certain types of DIY project have obviously become out of reach for the average amateur tinkerer. But building loudspeakers is still within reach of almost anyone with opposable thumbs and who can follow a set of simple instructions. And it's still where you can get most bang for your buck.

Regardless of the number of DIYers out there, testing DIY kits can be a reality check in relation to the commercial offerings with regard to what you actually get for your money. A case in point are the recent reviews of the Buchardt and Verdant speakers where there has been much discussion of their price vs. performance ratio. There are kits available using identical or very similar driver configurations to both these products. It would be interesting to see how they compare would it not ...?

 

[Absolute]

I think all speaker testing now in the start is interesting in the sense of building a database for comparisons. We're after quality for the money so we need sufficient data to establish a foundation for what that even means. Now we're worshipping Elac's 600$ speaker, but would we if the Ebay-kit at 150$ measures and sounds better while looking okay? Context is needed.

Once that is done, the focus can change and kit makers should in general send in their kits for free if they want the free airtime. DIY builders should pay a set fee + shipping both ways if they want to test something.

Edit; a combination of nr 3 and 4 could work.

 

[xarkkon]

Undoubtedly? You have numbers to back up such a claim?

Depending on how you define 'audiophile' I would guess the DIY segment is quite sizable within the audiophile community in one form or another. It's not many years since it was pretty much synonymous. However, since the advent of digital technologies, certain types of DIY project have obviously become out of reach for the average amateur tinkerer. But building loudspeakers is still within reach of almost anyone with opposable thumbs and who can follow a set of simple instructions. And it's still where you can get most bang for your buck.

Regardless of the number of DIYers out there, testing DIY kits can be a reality check in relation to the commercial offerings with regard to what you actually get for your money. A case in point are the recent reviews of the Buchardt and Verdant speakers where there has been much discussion of their price vs. performance ratio. There are kits available using identical or very similar driver configurations to both these products. It would be interesting to see how they compare would it not ...?

Don't have to look too far. Just check out the number of views and comments on Amir's speaker reviews. DIY speakers like the Zaph and C Note fall behind the likes of KEF, ELAC, Buchardt etc by a mile.

That being said, I DO want to see more DIY speaker reviewers. Having built the C Note, I'm itching for more.

@ChrisP , hope you don't mind me asking but would you happen to have any insights on how we can get more diy speaker kits to these 2 fine gentlemen?