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Fuses do affect sound, the question is how much

Harmonie

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After 15 pages ... I just realize that a fuse affects the sound so much.
I just tested, taking the fuse out and guess what, the sound was affected well beyond hearing threshold :eek:
 

egellings

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I've seen these expensive 3AG sized fuses. There's a sucker blown, oops! born every minute. I have to take issue with fuse sound in speaker fuses that are inside the inverse feedback loop of the amplifiers they protect.
 

mhardy6647

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After 15 pages ... I just realize that a fuse affects the sound so much.
I just tested, taking the fuse out and guess what, the sound was affected well beyond hearing threshold :eek:
Need to do that double-blind.
Need to assess repeatability, too.

1611779363413.png
;)
 

egellings

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Double blind testing would ultimately settle the argument. However, testing is time consuming and I'd rather expend such efforts on things where testing could really settle the debate about a topic, such as effect on output stage topology on sound quality. Testing speaker fuses contained within an amp's feedback loop for sound quality amounts to testing for efficacy of a homeopathic product. No point in it, as a truly homeopathic product has the active ingredient diluted out of it completely, and the solvent, often water, 'remembers' properties of the missing active ingredient and confers benefits of those properties onto the consumer of the stuff. Um, I spoze. Basically, what I'm saying is that there's no need to test for a known nonexistent effect, placebo effect notwithstanding.
 

radix

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I try to keep an open mind -- especially about analog electronics as it's rather complex (figuratively and literally when talking about some wave forms).

Is there any mathematically or physics justified publications about directional wires or fuses for AC signals? It seems like a total misunderstanding that in AC, the same current flows both ways. Maybe it's confusion stemming from common single panel mains where there's a hot and neutral and ground and people are taught those make a difference (they do for safety, but not for the AC power).

I cannot imagine how one makes a directional AC fuse or wire. Maybe there's a way to make a fuse that performs really poorly in one direction and normally in another, relative for hot to neutral?

Marc
 

DonH56

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I try to keep an open mind -- especially about analog electronics as it's rather complex (figuratively and literally when talking about some wave forms).

Is there any mathematically or physics justified publications about directional wires or fuses for AC signals? It seems like a total misunderstanding that in AC, the same current flows both ways. Maybe it's confusion stemming from common single panel mains where there's a hot and neutral and ground and people are taught those make a difference (they do for safety, but not for the AC power).

I cannot imagine how one makes a directional AC fuse or wire. Maybe there's a way to make a fuse that performs really poorly in one direction and normally in another, relative for hot to neutral?

Marc

Unless there's a diode inside the fuse, the only directionality is the arrow printed on the outside...

The wire itself is non-directional, but some cables (typically XLR) may have the shield lifted at one end, and some may include various termination/filter networks on one end.
 
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zepplock

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It has nothing to do with AC vs DC. Directional cables claim that the shield is connected/grounded to one side of the cable. So in theory a directional cable is 1) physically different that non-directional, 2) are different physically when connected n opposite direction.

The question is: does any or all of those properties affect actual sound quality and noise/emf/whatever rejection.

Edit: obviosly it makes no sense with fuses, unless there's a shielded fuse? ;)
 

MakeMineVinyl

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The question is: does any or all of those properties affect actual sound quality and noise/emf/whatever rejection.

A shield connected at only one end is very common. While it doesn't affect sound quality per se, it does solve ground loop problems which can cause noise.
 

zepplock

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A shield connected at only one end is very common. While it doesn't affect sound quality per se, it does solve ground loop problems which can cause noise.

How can a shield solve ground loop issue? If there's a some sort of source of noise which cable picks up, yes shield can help, but ground loop? To solve it you need another path for signal/ground. Shield does not have it, it's just connected to RCA neutral.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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How can a shield solve ground loop issue? If there's a some sort of source of noise which cable picks up, yes shield can help, but ground loop? To solve it you need another path for signal/ground. Shield does not have it, it's just connected to RCA neutral.
The shield can connect one component's chassis or ground to the other, which may be at different voltage potential. That voltage can be carried on the shield. If the shield is an open circuit and used only for screening, no voltage can flow on it.
 

zepplock

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The shield can connect one component's chassis or ground to the other, which may be at different voltage potential. That voltage can be carried on the shield. If the shield is an open circuit and used only for screening, no voltage can flow on it.

Now I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not. I clearly stated that shield is connected to one side of RCA neutral. It can't solve any ground loop issues since it's not part of any circuit. Isn't it so?
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Now I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not. I clearly stated that shield is connected to one side of RCA neutral. It can't solve any ground loop issues since it's not part of any circuit. Isn't it so?
I must have confused what you were getting at. What I was referring to is with connecting two fully balanced components, and the common practice of having the shield connected at only one end. If you are using an RCA, then that's another thing.
 

radix

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It has nothing to do with AC vs DC. Directional cables claim that the shield is connected/grounded to one side of the cable. So in theory a directional cable is 1) physically different that non-directional, 2) are different physically when connected n opposite direction.

For a speaker, I could understand attaching a drain to the chassis if the cable goes a long way and you have very sensitive speakers. Maybe you could get a tiny bit a hum when nothing is playing or the source is off without a shield, at the expense of some extra capacitance. And sure, you'd want to make sure the right side is attached to the chassis. But I would bet in most cases for 4-8 ohm speakers and in-room wiring lengths, normal interference would have a hard time building up enough current to be heard. I'm sure someone has done the math on this for different noise sources (e.g. ballasts, 20-amp inductive loads, etc.).

For something like balanced XLR, the directionality is already determined by the connectors and you only float the ground on the sink side (sink for amp-to-amp and source for mic-amp if I remember correctly). And that's only if floating the drain due to ground loops.

For unbalanced line level, it does make sense to use a shielded cable, like RG6, but that's not floated unless you put in an audio transformer for isolation.

Marc
 
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I try to keep an open mind -- especially about analog electronics as it's rather complex (figuratively and literally when talking about some wave forms).

Is there any mathematically or physics justified publications about directional wires or fuses for AC signals? It seems like a total misunderstanding that in AC, the same current flows both ways. Maybe it's confusion stemming from common single panel mains where there's a hot and neutral and ground and people are taught those make a difference (they do for safety, but not for the AC power).

I cannot imagine how one makes a directional AC fuse or wire. Maybe there's a way to make a fuse that performs really poorly in one direction and normally in another, relative for hot to neutral?

Marc

To my recollection, if the conductor has enough impurities in it, then supposedly rectification can take affect, but as in all snake oil type claims, we are talking affects that are not able to be heard by the ear. There are some affects to the fuse elements that can also apply in a similar manner, but again you aint gonna hear them. Like I said, this is my recollection, I do not have anything specific to go on at this time that is in writing that I can find right now. In any case, the rectification would be random in nature so the net effect would be, even at the atomic level, very hard to even measure when considering an audio signal.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I've heard that slow-blow fuses tend to 'round off' the transients, and quick-blow fuses tend to emphasize transients. I read it on the internet, so it must be true. :oops:
 

Harmonie

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I've heard that slow-blow fuses tend to 'round off' the transients, and quick-blow fuses tend to emphasize transients. I read it on the internet, so it must be true. :oops:

For purist, take all fuses out and put a silver wire instead.

Don't know why I'm in fake snake oil mood :p (thus after having posted on the golden ear thread...).
 

zepplock

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I must have confused what you were getting at. What I was referring to is with connecting two fully balanced components, and the common practice of having the shield connected at only one end. If you are using an RCA, then that's another thing.

Totally understandable. My example was with RCA shielded/unshielded cables since this is where difference exists (and ofter claims exist about audible differences)
 

radix

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To my recollection, if the conductor has enough impurities in it, then supposedly rectification can take affect, but as in all snake oil type claims, we are talking affects that are not able to be heard by the ear. There are some affects to the fuse elements that can also apply in a similar manner, but again you aint gonna hear them. Like I said, this is my recollection, I do not have anything specific to go on at this time that is in writing that I can find right now. In any case, the rectification would be random in nature so the net effect would be, even at the atomic level, very hard to even measure when considering an audio signal.

I thought that OFC has a tiny bit higher conductivity. It also has a tiny bit more corrosion resistance, so it is less likely, over the millennia, to build up a non-conductive patina. It's also more resistant to hot hydrogen causing structural weaknesses. For example, CuOFP (oxygen-free copper with phosphorus) is used to pack spent nuclear fuel rods.

Here's something fun. Belden 5100UP, bare copper speaker wire, 2 conductor 14 AWG is 2.42 ohm/1000ft and 29 pF/ft, rated at 22A. Their CuOF high-conductivity speaker cable 1309A, 2 conductor 14 AWG is 2.5 ohm/1000ft and 20.5 pF/ft, rated at 13A. Over 20ft, would that extra 170 pF make a difference? I doubt it. That's like < 5% of a small crossover cap, and in parallel so it simply adds.

Marc
 

audio2design

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Is there any mathematically or physics justified publications about directional wires or fuses for AC signals? It seems like a total misunderstanding that in AC, the same current flows both ways. Maybe it's confusion stemming from common single panel mains where there's a hot and neutral and ground and people are taught those make a difference (they do for safety, but not for the AC power).

I cannot imagine how one makes a directional AC fuse or wire. Maybe there's a way to make a fuse that performs really poorly in one direction and normally in another, relative for hot to neutral?
Marc

All components have a directional component, even fuses and wires .... just not anywhere remotely close to the audio band. For wires you would have to get way into RF frequencies before you could detect anything. I am not sure you ever would for a fuse.

Contrary to what you may see written, things can be directional because the signals are AC. If you are just sending DC, there is no mechanism for directionality.
 
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