Fuses do affect sound, the question is how much

[NorthSky]

No I have not. Which is in no way an effective criticism. Synergistic is a total scam company thru and thru. They are an example of snake oil of the highest measure.

If you don't have personal experience, and no support for your criticism, how do you expect me to take what you say @ fair value?

Fair enough?

 

[NorthSky]

A general comment. Not aimed at you.

I, and others, have responded with practical responses. It does get tedious responding to repeated unsound opinions that could be answered with a simple Google search.

Oh I knew that, it was very clear.

What you and others have brought as scientific proofs?
If it is too tedious perhaps you should contemplate less tedious subjects.
Science can be tedious, very. It's part of a constant research and new discoveries. But you already know that.

 

[Sal1950]

No I have not. Which is in no way an effective criticism. Synergistic is a total scam company thru and thru. They are an example of snake oil of the highest measure.

I can think of no more reprehensible group of snake-oil peddlers in audio than SR. They are the shining example of everything that is wrong with Hi End audio.

 

[Wombat]

Oh I knew that, it was very clear.

What you and others have brought as scientific proofs?
If it is too tedious perhaps you should contemplate less tedious subjects.
Science can be tedious, very. It's part of a constant research and new discoveries. But you already know that.

Yes, there is always progress, but there has to be some substance in new claims to differentiate them from the 'noise'. Of course, you can finance whatever suits you, but scarce research capital usually isn't directed at hollow opinions.

The scientific information is out there for those who are interested beyond a quick answer on a forum.
I have said before that I am not a service for reducing my knowledge and experience to small paragraphs on forums for those who don't do their own homework. Happy to help interested individuals but not pursue entrenched misguided views. Some things are obviously beyond the understanding of questioners yet they entrench their ignorance in their responses.

I have little time for internet audio hearsay which is usually affected by the 'Chinese Whisper' phenomenon.

 

[NorthSky]

I did not make any claim, did you? And who has an hollow opinion exactly, Google?

 

[Wombat]

I did not make any claim, did you? And who has an hollow opinion exactly, Google?

I did not make any claim, did you? And who has an hollow opinion exactly, Google?

Again, a general response. Why take it personally?


Beware of pseudo-intellectualism. Now that is for you to consider.

 

[restorer-john]

Thinking out loud and getting back on track...

I was pondering how to identify, categorize and listen to the actual differences in fuses (assuming such differences exist).

A differential (non referenced to ground) measurement across a fuse, playing a known piece of music (because audiophile don't believe in test tones), at a decided-upon level (say 10w@8ohm from a reference 0dBFS 1KHz tone at the start, prior to the track commencing) into a known non-inductive load is run through an opamp high gain stage. That would give us the 'difference' between one end of the fuse and the other. One could multiply by enough gain to be able to record this 'effect' at a decent level (</= 2.0v) to listen and compare various fuses and then FFT (spectrum) the entire track for each fuse type.

Different fuses could tested and compared simply by listening to this potential difference signal- perhaps even lining up the files (based on the start tone or a finite tonebust length marker) and inverting to look for the difference between the actual fuses.

I'm not expecting to hear much, if anything, but it's Easter and I have four days off, so I might get around to it- maybe. Any thoughts?

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you don't have personal experience, and no support for your criticism, how do you expect me to take what you say @ fair value?

Fair enough?

Not fair at all.

Lacking personal experience in no way means there is no support for my criticism. Until you understand that you will not understand the rest.

 

[Cosmik]

Crowbar circuits are brutal, destructive and primitive IMO. In any case, all they serve to do (with the Quad 306) is trip a circuit breaker on the primary, blow a line fuse, and often several other parts (transistors, and in earlier models, SCRs) I don't like crowbar 'protection'- it is like throwing an actual crowbar over power lines- spectacular but not very clever...
...The Japanese had it all sorted in the late 70s. They developed complete protection circuits on a single SIL IC and they are still reliably saving gear and speakers from all types of failures and abuse.

examples: uPC1237HA, TA7317 etc

If I were designing amplifiers (which I'm not thank goodness), I would be more paranoid about burning houses down, or damaging uber-expensive speakers, than what happened to the amplifier! And part of this is when circuits go faulty rather than merely operating correctly when having to handle a short or a dodgy load.

Using a series relay to protect against DC (as in the IC examples you give), for example, is fraught with difficulty, with the possibility of arcing and/or welded contacts:
https://www.halfgaar.net/dc-protection-with-relays
(They are also not for 'purists' because of the imposition of a tiny pair of partially oxidised contacts in series with their 1" diameter speaker cables!)


I don't know for certain that Quad's circuit was/is perfect but I think it shows signs of having been 'thought about' in their quest to be the manufacturer with amplifiers stable into any load and capable of being a workhorse that survived in professional environments. Like a lab power supply, an amplifier can be designed to survive an output short circuit and be stable into an open circuit. Certain topologies will prevent horrible 'thumps' at power-up without needing a series relay (e.g. the Quad 306). The amplifier can be maintained in its safe operating area (SOA) by monitoring various parameters and shutting down transistors if a certain envelope of power and time constants is strayed out of (something pioneered by Quad also, I think?).

What remains is the possibility that something goes wrong, like a transistor going faulty and becoming a short circuit, or a dry joint upsetting the bias or preventing some of the protection working, etc. In that case, you might need your protection circuit, but if it's a 10 year old relay, it might fail. The crowbar is the ultimate 'backstop'. It's a solid state device so its response time is instantaneous, and it is there to protect the load, not the amplifier. If your amp can survive a short circuit, it will not damage the amplifier (although the amp may be faulty already).

The Quad circuit also contains a circuit breaker in the power supply as a prior line of defence - faster and more precise than a fuse, and resettable (although there are obviously fuses too - multiple layers of 'failsafe'). And its other big feature is its floating ground power supply. The amplifier is direct coupled, but the power supply is, in effect, AC coupled! This limits the energy that can be dumped into the load if something goes wrong.

I would much rather be using a Quad amplifier than something designed by, say, S***t.

 

[Deleted member 65]

Any idea/guesswork on the purpose of the fuses in my amp, see attachment?

The manufacturer sent me two videos to determine faultcondition, they're named Termic & DC (not able to upload them, MP4 files).

 

[Wombat]

Thinking out loud and getting back on track...

I was pondering how to identify, categorize and listen to the actual differences in fuses (assuming such differences exist).

A differential (non referenced to ground) measurement across a fuse, playing a known piece of music (because audiophile don't believe in test tones), at a decided-upon level (say 10w@8ohm from a reference 0dBFS 1KHz tone at the start, prior to the track commencing) into a known non-inductive load is run through an opamp high gain stage. That would give us the 'difference' between one end of the fuse and the other. One could multiply by enough gain to be able to record this 'effect' at a decent level (</= 2.0v) to listen and compare various fuses and then FFT (spectrum) the entire track for each fuse type.

Different fuses could tested and compared simply by listening to this potential difference signal- perhaps even lining up the files (based on the start tone or a finite tonebust length marker) and inverting to look for the difference between the actual fuses.

I'm not expecting to hear much, if anything, but it's Easter and I have four days off, so I might get around to it- maybe. Any thoughts?

The listening part is too subjective for wider consideration.

Enjoy the holiday. Listen to the birds, smell the grass and flowers, enjoy the trees and nature's views. Have some fish and chips and a stubby.

Of course the test bench may be irresistible.

 

[restorer-john]

..The listening part is too subjective for wider consideration...

But, at least, the actual difference (whatever it is) could be distributed, anal..ysed and compared. We could crowd-source fuse audibility data.

I'm gonna have a drink. Happy Easter to you all too.

Cheers.

 

[restorer-john]

I would much rather be using a Quad amplifier than something designed by, say, S***t.

Totally agree. Peter Walker was (and still is R.I.P.) a legend and pioneer of engineering-based high fidelity and we are indebted to him, and many other trail blazers of his era.

This, is a quote attributed to JGH and is rather apt:

“Audio as a hobby is dying, largely by its own hand. As far as the real world is concerned, high-end audio lost its credibility during the 1980s, when it flatly refused to submit to the kind of basic honesty controls (double-blind testing, for example) that had legitimized every other serious scientific endeavor since Pascal. [This refusal] is a source of endless derisive amusement among rational people and of perpetual embarrassment for me..”

 

[Dimitri]

you are trolling the community with this

Threads attempting to start a "discussion" on fuses,cable elevators, cryogenically treated AC receptacles, pvc vs teflon vs whatever wire insulation, really only need a

LOL

as a response instead for walls of text.

It saves reading time, typing time and and discourages further attempts to "bait the readership"

So...
about them fuses.... LOL

 

[Arnold Krueger]

If I were designing amplifiers (which I'm not thank goodness), I would be more paranoid about burning houses down, or damaging uber-expensive speakers, than what happened to the amplifier! And part of this is when circuits go faulty rather than merely operating correctly when having to handle a short or a dodgy load.

Agreed, It is very common today to use built-in protective circuits that handle short circuits brilliantly and reliably. An SS amp that fries when shorted is arguably a highly deficient design. Relays are there more to protect the speakers if the output stage gives up the ghost, as one of the most common circuit failure modes connects the output terminal to one of the high-current, high-voltage power supplies to the speaker terminal through a very low resistance.

The detailed history of audio might be incomplete without a mention of Andy Rappaport. Googling, I found this: http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....-designed-audio-components.26616/#post-227816 but it is mercifully redacted. (more origional post: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.audio/RQhkcO0TgdM )

The rest of the story is that as his second act of genius, Andy Rappaport *designed* a power amp that in accordance with the audiophile revealed wisdom of the day lacked protective circuits.

Apparently, Rappaport's amp did actually lead to the complete or partial incineration of one or more client dwellings... The ensuing legal actions allegedly ruined him financially. He seems to have disappeared from notice...

 

[Thomas savage]

The listening part is too subjective for wider consideration.

Enjoy the holiday. Listen to the birds, smell the grass and flowers, enjoy the trees and nature's views. Have some fish and chips and a stubby.

Of course the test bench may be irresistible.

You know how to live the good life..

 

[Blumlein 88]

If you don't have personal experience, and no support for your criticism, how do you expect me to take what you say @ fair value?

Fair enough?

I'd like to revisit this briefly.

Let me ask you, if I and dozens of other people told you we had flapped our arms and flown like a bird would you:

A} Not believe us because knowing about gravity and birds and maybe a little aerodynamics realize there is no reason to go try it yourself before saying it isn't true.

B} Believe it until you personally had given it a try. Say not a peep about why it doesn't work because you haven't personally experienced it yourself.

The claims on these fuses are like flapping and flying your arms if you know a little bit about signal propagation and electronics. If you don't know about that, then I get why it might not be obvious to you. Obviously, there are plenty of people who don't know which is what keeps these companies in business. Just like miracle cures for baldness, erectile disfunction and weight loss remedies.

So why would the purveyors of this fantasyland stuff get a pass and you believe them until you try it yourself, while those knowledgeable in the field don't get credibility when they say it isn't true?

Yes, if someone does flap their arms and fly like a bird then we were wrong to dismiss them. But making an incredible claim that goes against physics requires those making the claim to carry the burden of proof. Not get a free pass until everyone personally tries it for themselves.

 

[NorthSky]

Theory experimentation, hypothetical physics, practical suggestion, scientific test, audio fuse rolling, blind test comparison, technical measurements ...

* Take two brand new same integrated amps and replace the fuses in one of them by audiophile certified premium fuses. Burn the two amps equally @ the same level with the same music (Tidal source) for the same time...100, 200 and 300 hours. @ each 100 hours interval perform a blind test. And take measurements of both integrated amps for each 100-hour period, for good measure.

The above is a suggestion for amateur audio scientists who love exploring, experimenting, discovering, who are passionate about audio challenges.
_____

* Bonus: https://www.cnet.com/news/39-gold-plated-fuses-improve-sound-quality/
___

Now if you would excuse me it's time for my peanut butter/jelly/banana sandwich.

 

[RayDunzl]

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's mind there are few. ”
― Shunryu Suzuki

 

[Blumlein 88]

Theory experimentation, hypothetical physics, practical suggestion, scientific test, audio fuse rolling, blind test comparison, technical measurements ...

* Take two brand new same integrated amps and replace the fuses in one of them by audiophile certified premium fuses. Burn the two amps equally @ the same level with the same music (Tidal source) for the same time...100, 200 and 300 hours. @ each 100 hours interval perform a blind test. And take measurements of both integrated amps for each 100-hour period, for good measure.

The above is a suggestion for amateur audio scientists who love exploring, experimenting, discovering, who are passionate about audio challenges.
_____

* Bonus: https://www.cnet.com/news/39-gold-plated-fuses-improve-sound-quality/
___

Now if you would excuse me it's time for my peanut butter/jelly/banana sandwich.

And it will be a big waste of time. But if the believers do this and come up with a result others will listen.

I've always had the two minds approach to Ray's quote.