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Fun with vinyl measurements

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Balle Clorin

Balle Clorin

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I've had no luck with them either.
What kind of problems did they have, I noticed that mine if s not 100% flat, giving a slight oscillation once per revolution on some tracks . I have about 12 test records. NONE are perfect, even not Bruel&Kjær. The best ones I have are from Clearaudio . The ultimate Analog test record I have has an unforgivable error. The IMD test track is Made with lateral modulation, while vertical modulation is required for the test. ,!!
 

JP

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What kind of problems did they have, I noticed that mine if s not 100% flat, giving a slight oscillation once per revolution on some tracks . I have about 12 test records. NONE are perfect, even not Bruel&Kjær. The best ones I have are from Clearaudio . The ultimate Analog test record I have has an unforgivable error. The IMD test track is Made with lateral modulation, while vertical modulation is required for the test. ,!!

W&F track is one of the worst I've ever seen. FR tracks were off. Didn't check out the rest.
 

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What kind of problems did they have, I noticed that mine if s not 100% flat, giving a slight oscillation once per revolution on some tracks . I have about 12 test records. NONE are perfect, even not Bruel&Kjær. The best ones I have are from Clearaudio . The ultimate Analog test record I have has an unforgivable error. The IMD test track is Made with lateral modulation, while vertical modulation is required for the test. ,!!
Here is my original test record--scratched up, obvs.-- versus two replacements. Seems like a pressing error in the new ones. Note that every one I have had in my house (about 6) were off-center, but I was able to find the sweet spot with the first one. The others had similar issues. These measurements were taken one after another.

30LII OLD.png
30LII NEW 1.png
30LII NEW 2.png


You can't even get a usable simple W/F measurement from them. The numbers come out way worse than they really are. The plots above are of a turntable I was still restoring. I was able to get the following measurement with a Clearaudio Concept. All of the measurements here are at the same scale. I am thinking the new pressings are simply fucked now. The original is a few years old.

I like this scale (3Hz ticks for 3kHz) because if the issues are kept within a hash mark the results are pretty good by modern specs--or at least good enough (below 0.06% Peak DIN from what I can tell). I was disappointed with the previous JVC technical record because it isn't useful at this scale.

Clearaudio Concept · Tacet.png


W&F track is one of the worst I've ever seen. FR tracks were off. Didn't check out the rest.

W&F CBS STR-151 I-S 9-6-21.png


And I'm still figuring out if this is my Nak or my test tape, lol.

Nakamichi RX-505 · Abex TCC-114.png
 
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Balle Clorin

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Adjusting Azimuth by using WallyTools Fulcrum on my SME V
Crosstalk went from 40/24 til 29-30 both ways .
My Clearaudio test record TRS1007 seem to have more crosstalk than the new Ortofon

View attachment 222840
 
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Balle Clorin

Balle Clorin

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Correction, Measurment was with frequency range down to 5hz,that added low end disturbance in both channels= worse crosstalk values. Limiting the range to 20hz+ of even 200hz for a 1khz test gives a crosstalk of minus 35-36db. 5db better than the specification of the AT OC9ML/II I use.
The Ultimate Analog test record has good quality crosstalk track that give the values above


see also

https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...-puffin-review-phono-stage.19795/post-1275982
 
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atmasphere

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^^ Nice!
The reason people hear differences in 'cartridge loading' isn't on account of what it does for the cartridge; the inductance of a LOMC cartridge is so low that the loading has no effect at audio frequencies. The difference in sound is due to distortion; the inductance of the cartridge is in parallel with the capacitance of the tonearm cable so a rather high electrical peak is formed at RF frequency that can overload the input circuit of the phono preamp, causing distortion. If the HF overload margin of the phono section is lacking it can even result in ticks and pops which are also artifacts of distortion.
 

stereoplay

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In Post #136 I compared some speed measurement records:
I have quiet a lot of speed measurement test records. Some time ago, I put them on a Grundig PS4500 (Aka Technics SL-Q2) to see what happens: All of them showed different values.
So what I can say from my side of view: Be careful with the test records you are using to measure speed.

In the meantime I got additional two identical test records and was interested in the accuracy:

Screenshot 2022-09-05 09.44.29.png



Screenshot 2022-09-05 09.47.35.png


compared to a more precise gyroscope measurement of the turntable itself (JVC QL-Y55F):
Screenshot 2022-09-05 09.58.05.png
 

dlaloum

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Video stylus drag
Have you looked at lubricant treatments?

Fomblin (from memory) was used in LAST record treatments.

There were some threads on VinylEngine (or was it audiokarma) about 10 years ago, discussing the use of alternate lubricant treatments...

Including some measurements that showed differences

Another benefit of lubricant treatments is they tend to repel dust/grime, reduce vinyl wear, and increase stylus life.

BUT - it needs to be in small enough amounts or of a type that does not "gunk up" the stylus (speaking as a previous Gruv-glide user) - which can sometimes be achieved by not using too much (again - GruvGlide) - and it still needs to achieve its lubricant effects with very very small quantities applied.

Fomblin is good - but very very expensive... and the effects in the amount used in LAST are debatable - I don't recall seeing measurements confirming its lubricant effect.
 

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Wow just went through this thread today, excellent resource especially for Gyro owners (proudly me). Been mulling over whether or not to get the HR power supply but it seems it doesn't offer any improvement in wow and flutter. It seems like the belt is the limiting factor anyways, mine is from 6 or 7 years ago so it may not be of great vintage. But I've gotten w&f numbers around 0.1% so things are running pretty up to spec. If the HR is used just to adjust speed, I'm afraid it's not worth the asking price (not cheap!) since I can adjust speed with stock PSU, just 4 screws to open it up and the trimpot is right there. The HR PSU is supposed to lower noise floor but mine's pretty good atm. Any subjective improvements in sonics that anyone can share? (I know that's frowned upon here but I don't mind.) I'm leaning towards saving my money right now.

Wonder if Michell could make a belt out of the new EBLT material that Rega uses, if that would be an improvement. Guess the chances of that happening though are not bloody likely, but the new EBLT Reference belt on my old P3 has improved the w&f to 0.06%. I am using a Music Hall Cruise Control 2.0 on that badboy though.
 
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Balle Clorin

Balle Clorin

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Another type of measurement...
View attachment 229806
Unused Goldring 2300 Gyger II stylus
View attachment 229807
Unused Goldring 2300 Gyger II stylus

With some practice and correct lightning I get good pictures with the Windows Camara app . A bit more difficult to get good light and focus on the record. ATOC9ML/II

I use this for angles. Spec for AT-OC9ML/II is 23 degrees I have 21 here maybe rise the arm 8mm or so to get 23? The arm will be far from level with the platter then..... Kind of impossible to see SRA with all that glue
https://www.ginifab.com/feeds/angle_measurement/

1662877109811.png




1662877237552.png

With platter as reference line

1662822890175.jpeg
 

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Balle Clorin

Balle Clorin

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Wow just went through this thread today, excellent resource especially for Gyro owners (proudly me). Been mulling over whether or not to get the HR power supply but it seems it doesn't offer any improvement in wow and flutter. It seems like the belt is the limiting factor anyways, mine is from 6 or 7 years ago so it may not be of great vintage. But I've gotten w&f numbers around 0.1% so things are running pretty up to spec. If the HR is used just to adjust speed, I'm afraid it's not worth the asking price (not cheap!) since I can adjust speed with stock PSU, just 4 screws to open it up and the trimpot is right there. The HR PSU is supposed to lower noise floor but mine's pretty good atm. Any subjective improvements in sonics that anyone can share? (I know that's frowned upon here but I don't mind.) I'm leaning towards saving my money right now.

Wonder if Michell could make a belt out of the new EBLT material that Rega uses, if that would be an improvement. Guess the chances of that happening though are not bloody likely, but the new EBLT Reference belt on my old P3 has improved the w&f to 0.06%. I am using a Music Hall Cruise Control 2.0 on that badboy though.
I got the HR supply, I also tried the standard. NO difference at all. The only point with the HR supply is direct access to speed adjustment, and that is really necessary the way belt performance vary with humidity, temperature and so on.
 
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Balle Clorin

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OK here is my HTA check measuring the 2 harmonic distortion across the record on the loong 3150 Hz woe&flutter track on Clearaudio tTRS1007 tes record.
It doen not look like the Baerderwald/Løfgreen theoretical distortions om 2 minima.
The cart is aligned visually by zoomed camera , and the SME template, to get a visually aligned cantilever the cart is twisted slightly inwards at the front of cartridge.

1664009155608.png

When lowered the cantilever look straight i the air ,but sags slightly to the right side when resting , even with Aintiskate set to 0. This aligment gives very good crosstalk with Wallys Fulcrum (-35/-36db) and less distortion than before I installed Wallys Fulcrum

1664009255532.png



The alignement below looked better but gave worse crosstalk -40/-24 and more than twice as high distortion on the 3150Hz track

1664009794662.png



1664009932613.png


For reference a theoretical HTA distortion
1664010183645.png
 
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stereoplay

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I ran into an cheap and old ITT HIFI 8013 turntable which is built by Mitsubishi.
https://www.hifi-wiki.de/images/2/28/ITT_8013-Prospekt-1.jpg

As I was interested in the performance of the direct driven platter I measured the speed stability:

Screenshot 2022-09-21 10.13.58.png


It was far beyond specification. I also heard some noise from the bearing and so I opened the motor.

The Teflon mirror looked like a washer and the hemisphere of the spindle had already reached the steel plate underneath the Teflon mirror!

After servicing the whole bearing system I measured again:

Screenshot 2022-10-06 16.49.19.png

Much more better now.

Sadly I missed to measure also the rumble figure. I will do this in the near future.
 

Digital1955

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@pma I use SpectraPlus as well. I used the logging function to capture time vs frequency and then took the data and made a linear plot. I've seen polar plots from other users for W&F, but I think I like the linear plot better. This was for 33 1/3 speed. And the sample rate was 48Khz.
image (1).png





Here is what my cheap Music Hall MMF 2.1 with AC sync'd motor and belt drive looks like under the same test parameters

image (2).png
 
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