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Fun with vinyl measurements

GuidoK said:
On an ABX test this shouldn't matter.
Otherwise an argument like this would nullify any ABX test.
Click to expand...
I don't understand what you're saying...
 
Balle Clorin said:
I have mentioned this before but

1 . Wow defined as peak variation (2S) of 0.4% is clearly audible and will be heard on any music, sound like a battery cassette player with failing battery.
2. 0.2 , not audible on pop and rock, but maybe detectable for sensitive souls on piano.. threshold,,
3. 0.1% is not audible on my music, but audible on test record tones.
4. 0.05 is still audible on test
5. 0.02 is not obvious but can be noticed if you compare with a digital tone.

A good DD and belt drive can do 0.05% , mine does
Click to expand...
You did ABX testing on this?
Could you put those files on the forum if you still have them?
So from your testing we can conclude that up to 0.1% W&F is fine when listening to (critical) music?
I mean, all this measuring is a useful academic excercise and yields interesting results from a design perspective when making a new product, but if it's inaudible up to 0.1%, it doesn't serve any real world usefullness for an end consumer to pursue lower values.

And how did you test this?
Did you have decks that had audible W&F and then measured the W&F or did you take a digital original recording and induced artificial W&F digitally (and what pattern) and started listening to the results?
I ask this all out of geniune interest.
 
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Balle Clorin said:
I have mentioned this before but

1 . Wow defined as peak variation (2S) of 0.4% is clearly audible and will be heard on any music, sound like a battery cassette player with failing battery.
2. 0.2 , not audible on pop and rock, but maybe detectable for sensitive souls on piano.. threshold,,
3. 0.1% is not audible on my music, but audible on test record tones.
4. 0.05 is still audible on test
5. 0.02 is not obvious but can be noticed if you compare with a digital tone.
(
A good DD and belt drive can do 0.05% , mine does
Click to expand...
will you consider the turntables...or the total ?
test disk or gyto app? (
(I would rather use the gyro app in my comments)
;-)

(A solo piano test is a test in itself, like a solo tone... especially since the end result... we must find some on some well-pressed test discs in dda daa ... somes denon? etc ;-) )


more than variations of fr above 10khz.. the w&f is really a problem for those who listen to certain types of recordings and not only on test discs..
except at the cost of enormous efforts (see capstan)....we can hardly play on this point...when a simple peq or eq can help on the Fr side or some thd
 
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GuidoK said:
You did ABX testing on this?
Could you put those files on the forum if you still have them?
So from your testing we can conclude that up to 0.1% W&F is fine when listening to (critical) music?
I mean, all this measuring is a useful academic excercise and yields interesting results from a design perspective when making a new product, but if it's inaudible up to 0.1%, it doesn't serve any real world usefullness for an end consumer to pursue lower values.

And how did you test this?
Did you have decks that had audible W&F and then measured the W&F or did you take a digital original recording and induced artificial W&F digitally (and what pattern) and started listening to the results?
I ask this all out of geniune interest.
Click to expand...
take the piano, in particular record digitally so as not to add too much wf beforehand...you are in a test situation..you will see that even 0.1% 2sigma, a rather "hard" approach, is already ""a lot""...
"for a given disc of this type" by comparing turntables or making efforts to vary the wf...we easily see fairly obvious thresholds...
 
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morillon said:
you will see that even 0.1% 2sigma,
Click to expand...
How did you test that? What was your workflow? How did you create a 0.1% 2 sigma file?
I'm not really interested in verbal description on what someone might expect, but more interested in how to test it and what, by means of ABX, the results might be.
 
GuidoK said:
How did you test that? What was your workflow? How did you create a 0.1% 2 sigma file?
I'm not really interested in verbal description on what someone might expect, but more interested in how to test it and what, by means of ABX, the results might be.
Click to expand...
I'll let you think about the reasoned methods I was able to use (if you think about it a little you will see it is very simple) ..before thus "verbalizing"
 
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GuidoK said:
You did ABX testing on this?
Could you put those files on the forum if you still have them?
So from your testing we can conclude that up to 0.1% W&F is fine when listening to (critical) music?
I mean, all this measuring is a useful academic excercise and yields interesting results from a design perspective when making a new product, but if it's inaudible up to 0.1%, it doesn't serve any real world usefullness for an end consumer to pursue lower values.

And how did you test this?
Did you have decks that had audible W&F and then measured the W&F or did you take a digital original recording and induced artificial W&F digitally (and what pattern) and started listening to the results?
I ask this all out of geniune interest.
Click to expand...
Just long experience testing turntables with wow and flutter measurements . Be careful with the definitions.I use the peak variation which is close to 2S value, 95% of variation within that number.that is close to what my phone app reports. W&F DIn and JIS WRMS is very different value, much lower numbers, 0,03 vs 0.1 in some cases.

Virtin test software has files for download with different w&f .
I have recorings of TT with different w&f, and I can vary w&f on my Belt drive , and record the difference and listen to the files.
 
Balle Clorin said:
Just long experience testing turntables with wow and flutter measurements . Be careful with the definitions.I use the peak variation which is close to 2S value, 95% of variation within that number.that is close to what my phone app reports. W&F DIn and JIS WRMS is very different value, much lower numbers, 0,03 vs 0.1 in some cases.

Virtin test software has files for download with different w&f .
I have recorings of TT with different w&f, and I can vary w&f on my Belt drive , and record the difference and listen to the files.
Click to expand...
Just curous since I have not seen info of it; is the phone app 2s value unweighted?
 
All this leads to one conclusion: let people enjoy their vinyl played on almost always unmanageble and often outrageously expensive turntables, but don't tell other people that's a superior way to listen to music.
 
Thomas_A said:
Just curous since I have not seen info of it; is the phone app 2s value unweighted?
Click to expand...
Turntable rpm say 2S,
IMG_8195.jpeg

IMG_8194.png

The blue takes peak variation
IMG_8196.jpeg

Fisher MT-6330
IMG_8091.png
 
Balle Clorin said:
Turntable rpm say 2S,
View attachment 464428
View attachment 464429
The blue takes peak variation
View attachment 464430
Fisher MT-6330
View attachment 464431
Click to expand...
after efforts on the lubrication side, belt choice, choice of belt direction etc etc..but also more in the balancing in the position of the telephone...it is also the values 0.04/5 2sigma 0.03/4 rms that I ended up reaching on a single-motor AC -belt-suspension... become acceptable ...but it remains that dd, which I have, allows a slight improvement which on discs having w&f upstream gives a small margin which can be welcome.. but here values on app gyro without the addition coming from the disc...8
"positive" value not matching the accumulation with the entire "amon" wf
;-)
but above all all these considerations must be put into perspective depending on what we listen to etc.
 

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stereoplay said:
An interesting thought. So I attached the gyroscope to the outer edge of the platter and repeated the measurement. There was no difference compared to the measurement in the inner area.

In my plot, the scaling is given in percent. Each tick represents 0.1%.
Click to expand...

What's the test frequency?

I haven't measured many SL-1200MK2+, but I have measured well over 100 SP-10MKII/2A/3 and a spattering of other "statement" 'tables, typically using the motor FG. I've only seen two cases where the spectrum wasn't swamped by 0.55Hz from mechanical concentricity, and both those cases were due a winding having a different number of turns from the others.
 
Same magnetic sensor head and control board I guess, for details you have to look at the service manual.!
51F has a beefier motor than 47,37,21,23, but not as big as 59/62 and your 50M I guess.

Replace your caps before you get in trouble…
 
Balle Clorin said:
Same magnetic sensor head and control board I guess, for details you have to look at the service manual.!
51F has a beefier motor than 47,37,21,23, but not as big as 59/62 and your 50M I guess.

Replace your caps before you get in trouble…
Click to expand...
Yes, it has that Denon ic, so probably next to do so!
 
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