Fun with vinyl measurements

[watchnerd]

Fun factor kinda like a good science fiction read?

More like watching a train wreck

 

[Muddywaters]

More like watching a train wreck

Made me think of this movie oddly

 

[Muddywaters]

You ordered a bonded conical cartridge?

Can I ask why?

Sorry missed this earlier. Sure you can ask.

I’ll use the conical on unknown provenance lp’s prior to ultrasonic cleaning especially if I’m less or unfamiliar with the music or the source that provided them. (Or especially if I know the source personally and their likely record hygiene ).

On some older mono lp’s I prefer using conicals of various sizes and again with unfamiliar performances for checking them out in advance of mounting up one of my mono carts. Using my Waxwing or Puffin digital phono pre’s I’m finding the Super Mono mode may obviate using my mono carts much.

Lastly cheapest route to get a correct ‘x’ body inductance, R and impedance to use with the new cartridge line styli.

Don’t mind me I’ve got way too many cartridges…

 

[GuidoK]

2.0 - 2.3 might be a better number for rough estimates based on a thread I just read on vinylengine

I have a feeling that there's just not one conversion factor really suitable....if some carts fit within 1.7 (like for example an at-440mla) and others in 2.3 (like for example an at-95e), then it's not that useful. I mean that's quite the difference and it's something you could guess in the first place.
That said, I've never seen a good study in how constant/up to spec cartridges are regarding compliance (neither 10hz nor 100hz). Maybe the deviation per specimen is quite big.

@GuidoK Maybe you can buy a few and contribute to the knowledge base?

The cartriges I'm currently using aren't worn out yet, so new cartridges are not needed here.

You can do your own measurements with records that have a 100Hz sine tone and a given velocity/displacement :


Calculate compliance with a test record (CBS-STR100, 100 Hz, lateral/vertical):
Compliance [µm/mN]=Displacement/(9.8*critical tracking force)

Displacement in µm; (on disc are 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 µm bands, you can choose one);
Critical tracking force in g: weight at which the cartridge distorts;

If the velocity is given you can use this formula:
Compliance [µm/mN]=230*velocity/(100*critical tracking force)

Velocity in cm/s;
Critical tracking force in g: weight at which the cartridge distorts;

You have to reduce the tracking force bit by bit until distortion occurs

Thanks for your post. That formula is exactly the same one I posted. I did some thinking about it.
I guess I know why they call it compliance, the physical unit is indeed the same (displacement divided by force), and when using a vertical modulated track it might bear some resemblance, but with using this method, they're stating that at the low end of the amplitude (with a vertical track) the VTF is 0gr (or 0N) and still tracks. That seems far fetched.
For the lateral measurement imho it holds no real connection to the concept of compliance in the sense of being the inverse of spring constant. It might be more a pointer to determine a suitable VTF
I wonder if the japanese brands all use the same displacement for their published spec. They only say 100hz, but do they use a 50µm track (and what direction of modulation) or a smaller modulation?
But for sure for me it raises some questions about the correctness of some of the published numbers (mainly from some cartridges from AT).

 

[watchnerd]

I have a feeling that there's just not one conversion factor really suitable....if some carts fit within 1.7 (like for example an at-440mla) and others in 2.3 (like for example an at-95e), then it's not that useful. I mean that's quite the difference and it's something you could guess in the first place.
That said, I've never seen a good study in how constant/up to spec cartridges are regarding compliance (neither 10hz nor 100hz). Maybe the deviation per specimen is quite big.


The cartriges I'm currently using aren't worn out yet, so new cartridges are not needed here.


Thanks for your post. That formula is exactly the same one I posted. I did some thinking about it.
I guess I know why they call it compliance, the physical unit is indeed the same (displacement divided by force), and when using a vertical modulated track it might bear some resemblance, but with using this method, they're stating that at the low end of the amplitude (with a vertical track) the VTF is 0gr (or 0N) and still tracks. That seems far fetched.
For the lateral measurement imho it holds no real connection to the concept of compliance in the sense of being the inverse of spring constant. It might be more a pointer to determine a suitable VTF
I wonder if the japanese brands all use the same displacement for their published spec. They only say 100hz, but do they use a 50µm track (and what direction of modulation) or a smaller modulation?
But for sure for me it raises some questions about the correctness of some of the published numbers (mainly from some cartridges from AT).

What's an example of where you would do this?

I have a mono conical cart, but I stopped using it vs just hitting the Mono button on the amp.

 

[GuidoK]

What's an example of where you would do this?

Do what exactly?

 

[Muddywaters]

The longstanding AT 100pF - 200pF loading guidance is changed with the arrival of these new ‘x’ cartridges. I might have to get my cap loading plugs out. (I really have get off my butt and get the cartridge measurement script up and running.)

It will be interesting to see results running previous generation impedance bodies with these new styli. I wonder how much the actual impact will be in practice.

Recommended Load Capacitance	150 to 250 pF

 

[watchnerd]

Do what exactly?

Pkease ignore.

I replied to the wrong post

 

[watchnerd]

The longstanding AT 100pF - 200pF loading guidance is changed with the arrival of these new ‘x’ cartridges. I might have to get my cap loading plugs out. (I really have get off my butt and get the cartridge measurement script up and running.)

It will be interesting to see results running previous generation impedance bodies with these new styli. I wonder how much the actual impact will be in practice.

Recommended Load Capacitance	150 to 250 pF

I read that; re-checked the built in 320 pF of my amp, and decided to go back to MC for a while.

Got the HM-7 SUT out of storage last night and dusted it off

 

[Muddywaters]

Available on Amazon US $40 less than the outgoing version

Audio Technica AT-VMN40xML VMx Replacement Stylus​

https://a.co/d/6h46Ii7

Extended delivery however. Can’t search and get the boron cantilever to show up

My order with AT direct is showing delivery for tomorrow FedEx out of Olive Branch, Mississippi!

 

[Muddywaters]

Cardboard packaging, recyclable I guess. Have to figure which headshell I’ll use, probably ~10g should work well on at least three of my arms considering the declared compliance specs.

 

[watchnerd]

View attachment 452700

Cardboard packaging, recyclable I guess. Have to figure which headshell I’ll use, probably ~10g should work well on at least three of my arms considering the declared compliance specs.

Nice, but what's the coin with grey sticky stuff for?

 

[Muddywaters]

Very observant

As a watch nerd you may be familiar with this?

Nice, but what's the coin with grey sticky stuff for?

No residue for occasional dips with the stylus

On my Victor arm (guesstimate of ~16g EM) with a 11.2g headshell I’m seeing 8Hz This is with the Waxwing’s low cut cranked down to 5 Hz I normally run it 20-25 Hz.

Audio Technica is typically pretty good on hitting their specs no exception here. Good r/l channel balance

Sounds good even though I’m on the low side of capacitance guessing 130-150pF. No time for testing loading right now. Have to prep for dinner out tonight.

 

[Palmer]

Bergeon is awesome, I started using it myself...

 

[watchnerd]

I’ve been remounting / aligning my ART9XA.

Used the Puffin’s Azimuth feature.

How well do you think it works vs other methods (e.g. scope)?

And after futzing and twisting the cart at what point do you call it good enough?

 

[Balle Clorin]

The azimuth function works very well.-depending on the test record, I can get the separation within 0.5 and one DB, at the level of -31 on the Ortofon record and -38 on the analog production ultimate test record. Much easier than oscilloscope method or any other method. Getting values below 0.5 is difficult since the values change across the track and do jump up and down a bit. Advantage is the 400 hz high pass filter that removes rubbish from the low single channel for a better representation of the actual crosstalk. the 400hz filter was my idea that I gave to Shannon and he then implemented it.
The difficulty is making small enough adjustments, I do this by the Wally Tools Fulcrum method, and less than 1/8 or turn on the screw can be enough( 0.27 degrees or 0.02mm twist on the headshell) , even using a clamp or not or different mat or not can change the crosstalk significantly.

I also can use analog magic software for this it filter as well it makes the values stable, but for crosstalk and the AnalogMagik record is worse than both Ortofon and Ultimate test record

 

[Balle Clorin]

Extended delivery however. Can’t search and get the boron cantilever to show up

Scroll to the right..see the dots..
But the colour choose is bad , two indistinguishable reds? Why not make one green it white or magenta or something?

AT-VM745xML

All VMx cartridges feature a generator with paratoroidal coil construction: two coils per channel – one stacked behind the other – for greatly improved efficiency. A center shield plat ...

www.audio-technica.com

 

[Muddywaters]

Scroll to the right..see the dots..
But the colour choose is bad , two indistinguishable reds? Why not make one green it white or magenta or something?
View attachment 453007View attachment 453008

AT-VM745xML

All VMx cartridges feature a generator with paratoroidal coil construction: two coils per channel – one stacked behind the other – for greatly improved efficiency. A center shield plat ...

www.audio-technica.com

I was referring to Amazon (US) showing the x740ML as available. But no listing for the x745ML yet

 

[JP]

Probably low risk being just released, but I never buy carts or styli from Amazon anymore. The percentage of used and returned or damaged and returned that I’ve gotten is very high.

 

[Muddywaters]

Probably low risk being just released, but I never buy carts or styli from Amazon anymore. The percentage of used and returned or damaged and returned that I’ve gotten is very high.

Fully understand having received a bent 740ML a few days ago