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Fun with vinyl measurements

GuidoK said:
No the question how it's measured and then calculated. The 100Hz compliance figure I mean.
Like I wrote in post #1750
www.audiosciencereview.com

Fun with vinyl measurements

Compliance on the most popular models has decreased from Compliance 40 × 10-6 cm/dyne Dynamic Compliance 10 × 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz) to Compliance 20 × 10-6 cm/dyne Dynamic Compliance 7 × 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz) Dang it, I'd have to redo my headshell math if I upgrade to these versions.
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
Click to expand...
The best info I know of is Yosh but most are in japanese. I know he is still around, he should pop in here...

 
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GuidoK said:
Indeed you must measure the resonance frequency (so either with a test record, or just record some music and do a frequency analysis with audacity/rew/any other wave editor), and of course you must know the effective mass of your arm. Usually I calculate that by disassembling the arm and weigh each individual part (as far as that is possible), calculate their specific moment of inertia and then recalculate the effective mass to whatever the effective lenght is for that setup.
And from those 2 numbers you calculate the compliance (using hooke's law, but I usually use one of the calculators on VE that does that for you)
Click to expand...

Why bother with all of that and back calculating the cu at 10 Hz when you can empirically observe what the resonance is, anyway?

After all, the objective (at least for me) is to avoid problematic resonances, not calculate cu for its own sake.
 
watchnerd said:
Why bother with all of that and back calculating the cu at 10 Hz when you can empirically observe what the resonance is, anyway?
Click to expand...
To predict/calculate it's behaviour in different arms.
That's why the 10hz compliance is given as a spec in the first place.
But you were asking me how to do it, so now you're questioning your own question, is that correct?:)
 
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GuidoK said:
To predict/calculate it's behaviour in different arms.
That's why the 10hz compliance is given as a spec in the first place.
But you were asking me how to do it, so now you're questioning your own question, is that correct?:)
Click to expand...

Yes, that is correct. ;)

Given the effort, it seems like a SWAG could be made using the 1.7 multiple (or whatever you want), and then empirically observe what the resonance is, since you have to do it, anyway.
 
Ah that explains it. Swag wasn't in the dictionairy :D

But that 1.7 multiplier just doesn't work. There is imho no relation between 100Hz compliance and 10Hz compliance. They will work on different principles.
And you see that in the numbers. Sure some cartridges will fit in that 1.7 multiplier. But take a look at the AT-95e, one of the best sold cartridges in the world....
AT specs it's 100Hz compliance at 6,5 mm/N. Times 1.7 that's 11 mm/N. And that's way off from it's real 10hz compliance which is more like 16mm/N
Especially as AT also specced their at-3600L cart (probably the best sold cart in the world right now) also as 6,5 mm/N@100Hz. And that has a 10Hz compliance of about 8mm/N.
So there's nothing educated about that guess imho. It's a multiplier that 'sometimes' applies to some cartridges....
That is why I ask about anyone who buys the new AT carts to do a 10Hz compliance measurement

I also don't agree with your statement: "and then empirically observe what the resonance is, since you have to do it, anyway."
Proper specs serve the cause that you can predict what you're gonna get before you buy it. That's the whole idea.
 
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GuidoK said:
Ah that explains it. Swag wasn't in the dictionairy :D

But that 1.7 multiplier just doesn't work. There is imho no relation between 100Hz compliance and 10Hz compliance. They will work on different principles.
And you see that in the numbers. Sure some cartridges will fit in that 1.7 multiplier. But take a look at the AT-95e, one of the best sold cartridges in the world....
AT specs it's 100Hz compliance at 6,5 mm/N. Times 1.7 that's 11 mm/N. And that's way off from it's real 10hz compliance which is more like 16mm/N
Especially as AT also specced their at-3600L cart (probably the best sold cart in the world right now) also as 6,5 mm/N@100Hz. And that has a 10Hz compliance of about 8mm/N.
So there's nothing educated about that guess imho. It's a multiplier that 'sometimes' applies to some cartridges....
That is why I ask about anyone who buys the new AT carts to do a 10Hz compliance measurement

I also don't agree with your statement: "and then empirically observe what the resonance is, since you have to do it, anyway."
Proper specs serve the cause that you can predict what you're gonna get before you buy it. That's the whole idea.
Click to expand...

2.0 - 2.3 might be a better number for rough estimates based on a thread I just read on vinylengine
 
GuidoK said:
No the question how it's measured and then calculated. The 100Hz compliance figure I mean.
Like I wrote in post #1750
www.audiosciencereview.com

Fun with vinyl measurements

Compliance on the most popular models has decreased from Compliance 40 × 10-6 cm/dyne Dynamic Compliance 10 × 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz) to Compliance 20 × 10-6 cm/dyne Dynamic Compliance 7 × 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz) Dang it, I'd have to redo my headshell math if I upgrade to these versions.
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
Click to expand...

You can do your own measurements with records that have a 100Hz sine tone and a given velocity/displacement :


Calculate compliance with a test record (CBS-STR100, 100 Hz, lateral/vertical):
Compliance [µm/mN]=Displacement/(9.8*critical tracking force)

Displacement in µm; (on disc are 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 µm bands, you can choose one);
Critical tracking force in g: weight at which the cartridge distorts;

If the velocity is given you can use this formula:
Compliance [µm/mN]=230*velocity/(100*critical tracking force)

Velocity in cm/s;
Critical tracking force in g: weight at which the cartridge distorts;

You have to reduce the tracking force bit by bit until distortion occurs
 
Maybe this is a dumb question:

Why do Western and Japanese makers use a different standard to measure compliance in the first place?
 
I think the Japanese spec has something to t¨do with trackability and is not related to resonance /arm matching at all.
The european in related to arm matching and not tracking I guess
 
mackat said:
Compliance on the most popular models has decreased from

Compliance 40 × 10-6 cm/dyne
Dynamic Compliance 10 × 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz)

to

Compliance 20 × 10-6 cm/dyne
Dynamic Compliance 7 × 10-6 cm/dyne (100 Hz)
Click to expand...
Where were you able to find these specs? TIA

I just ordered a

VM510xCB​

And

VMN40xML​

 
Muddywaters said:
Where were you able to find these specs? TIA

I just ordered a

VM510xCB​

And

VMN40xML​

Click to expand...
Oops found it. Had to scroll past the “Our Story”, cleaning and cart accessories to get to the full specs.:facepalm: Why they don’t have them directly below the cartridge rather than all the marketing speak…
 
watchnerd said:
It can be amusing.

One guy tore apart a Pioneer TT trying to figure out of it had a preamp or not rather than just reading the documentation.
Click to expand...
:facepalm:

Fun factor kinda like a good science fiction read?
 
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