Fun with vinyl measurements

[morillon]

You mean a test records 3150 Hz? This is not what I mean to test though. I just mean testing speed with the load of the arm/cartridge friction. Any LP will do.

sorry... you are true...": speak to fast""
( just funny too compare too in real time two methods)

 

[morillon]

It remains crazy to me that so many extremely specific subjects are highlighted, approaches that are clearly very delicate to the measurements or not necessarily audible, when the subject of antiskating which is almost insoluble , and which taints listening is swept "under the carpet", even and especially here, while your approaches are "high level" . (requests real precautions in each measurement addressing the THD etc.)... it is the subject which shows the relative aspect of all that ;-)

 

[Thomas_A]

It remains crazy to me that so many extremely specific subjects are highlighted, approaches that are clearly very delicate to the measurements or not necessarily audible, when the subject of antiskating which is almost insoluble , and which taints listening is swept "under the carpet", even and especially here, while your approaches are "high level" . (requests real precautions in each measurement addressing the THD etc.)... it is the subject which shows the relative aspect of all that ;-)

Antiskating is an issue, but I can't say what order it has when it comes to distortion. Important IMO is to have low crosstalk and low distortion in the treble (cartridge mostly), where sibilants sometimes can be distorted and "smeared out". Sometimes the sibilant breaks up and is no longer "connected" to the remaning voice, and sometimes adjusting anti-skate can help to "reconnect" the sibilant to the main voice. This setting usually is quite close to the "blank space" adjustment setting, so I usually end up there.

That is my take on anti-skate.

Then we have the linear trackers as well. But I somehow don't want to go as far as linear trackers.

 

[morillon]

Antiskating is an issue, but I can't say what order it has when it comes to distortion. Important IMO is to have low crosstalk and low distortion in the treble (cartridge mostly), where sibilants sometimes can be distorted and "smeared out". Sometimes the sibilant breaks up and is no longer "connected" to the remaning voice, and sometimes adjusting anti-skate can help to "reconnect" the sibilant to the main voice. This setting usually is quite close to the "blank space" adjustment setting, so I usually end up there.

That is my take on anti-skate.

Then we have the linear trackers as well. But I somehow don't want to go as far as linear trackers.

it is the "impossible" setting, determined by the levels concerned which determines the force to fight...so truly indeterminable... invites you to observe it on the typical test ranges like 330hz or 1k... it is one of the most obvious, totally audible... has led to many pitfalls according to somewhat stupid approaches finally...or typically stupidities due to rules determined on tracks dedicated to high level tracking etc... it is the most typical source of wear observed by retippers etc the most typical and somewhat sad example which has been crossed for a long time...: the hfr setting passing from 15db to 3 places on the disc (or on the drrbier downright a huge error in explanation where the tracking ranges described as being to adjust the antiskating!!!!)... seemed logical whereas idiotic... considering levels rarely encountered, was over-compensated on 95% of this that you listen to and with a THD too high, and significant asymmetric wear... same with the torture ranges at high level requiring adjustments unrelated to use..then you have to lower the antiskating etc. it is the same with your fr ranges...or the antiskating must be adapted to the level considered etc etc.... vast subject... the race for performance on the tracking side misunderstood has often led to the wall... well I especially hope to have brought the subject "back on the table"... biases must be made by everyone... ;-)

 

[Thomas_A]

Torture tracks for setting anti-skate is wrong. One can also set anti-skate using a microscope and look at the left-right stylus deflection when set into a groove (e.g. pink noise).

 

[Balle Clorin]

Can you play a record while the shaknspin is on? If so, you can check the speed during dynamic (friction) conditions.

Yes I have done. And posted it here somewhere too. Speed drops 0.03-0.05 rpm or so as far as I can recall.

Here it is
Post in thread 'Fun with vinyl measurements'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...un-with-vinyl-measurements.20278/post-1643224

Post in thread 'Fun with vinyl measurements'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...un-with-vinyl-measurements.20278/post-1235952

 

[morillon]

Torture tracks for setting anti-skate is wrong. One can also set anti-skate using a microscope and look at the left-right stylus deflection when set into a groove (e.g. pink noise).

it basically can't work.. it is instantly linked to the engraving level..so can only be very relative... your adapted values are systematically adapted to the levels of the test ranges fr vta vtf crosstalk etc? ;-)

 

[Thomas_A]

it basically can't work.. it is instantly linked to the engraving level..so can only be very relative... your adapted values are systematically adapted to the levels of the test ranges fr vta vtf crosstalk etc? ;-)

Well, anti-skate force is set to an average. VTF is also set an average; ideally it should be set so the generator is centered. But stylus deflects with both warps and eccentricity and affect its position. So again, both VTF and anti-skate is set as an average. One should instead perhaps work to flatten all records and center them, and use tonearms that counteract that fundamental resonance causing stylus to go wild at 4-20 Hz...

 

[Thomas_A]

I don't want to disclose what tonearm this is, but it likes to dance around 7 Hz...

 

[JP]

Damn.

 

[Thomas_A]

I would perhaps forgive the designer if it was M. Jackson that danced. But it isn't...

 

[Thomas_A]

from memory the hungaroton allows it....
3k150 in first at face b
+180gr

BTW, my Hungaraton arrived but quite warped. Tried to flatten it but just little effect. Maybe I need to get the Pi flattener.

 

[morillon]

Well, anti-skate force is set to an average. VTF is also set an average; ideally it should be set so the generator is centered. But stylus deflects with both warps and eccentricity and affect its position. So again, both VTF and anti-skate is set as an average. One should instead perhaps work to flatten all records and center them, and use tonearms that counteract that fundamental resonance causing stylus to go wild at 4-20 Hz...

if historically we used for example the piano lp mono to adjust it, it is because as for the w&f the orders of magnitude are important.... (the idea was to minimize it)
we can not even wait to observe the wear in the microscope... to adjust it, right? ;-)
PS I have all the same observed a lot of cases or for example the amortissent by palette in silicone, often on arms relatively light ended up being withdrawn abandoned etc judge subjectively the less nice result .... (may be for lack of curuosity concerning the viscosity of the one who could have been minimized, etc.)

 

[Balle Clorin]

BTW, my Hungaraton arrived but quite warped. Tried to flatten it but just little effect. Maybe I need to get the Pi flattener.

Tell how the PI works if you get it! I have som warped test records too.. but my Hungarotone was luckily flat

 

[Thomas_A]

Tell how the PI works if you get it! I have som warped test records too.. but my Hungarotone was luckily flat

Yes, I will. I will probably get it some day and test. It is not that expensive. An autumn project.

 

[Balle Clorin]

@Thomas_A
Can you please once more explain what is means when the white noise testsignal OUT-OF Phase is larger than IN-Phase white noise..
EDIT The IN-phase LEFT signal is 2dB higher here.. start start with OUT of phase and second part is IN phase

 

[Thomas_A]

@Thomas_A
Can you please once more explain what is means when the white noise testsignal OUT-OF Phase is larger than IN-Phase white noise..
EDIT The IN-phase LEFT signal is 2dB higher here.. start start with OUT of phase and second part is IN phase
View attachment 386094

View attachment 386095

Is the noise correlated or uncorrelated? With respect to channel balance it seems to be a stylus/cartridge issue mostly. It is affected only a little with azimuth/crosstalk. Then there is the issue of centering the stylus/magnet in the cartridge "motor" which is a function of VTF and anti-skate force. HF response is also affected by the coil values - how well matched are they? And the test record itself?

If the white noise is correlated the signals should be out-of-phase, ideally over the whole frequency response range.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Not sure if the Noise is correlated or not, or What that means, my Japanese is not good enough, and Google Translate do not know either

the crosstalk check on this record - Toshiba LF-9001 -is excellelent -35/37 range for both my Shure V15IV SASB TT and AT-OC9MLii TT. No wonder DS Audio use this record to in their lab adjust their cartridges ( a pity their spec is limited to 27db or so)

 

[Thomas_A]

It should be correlated if it is true white noise vertical. Look at the waveforms zoomed in.

 

[Balle Clorin]

out of phase wn