Fun with vinyl measurements

[Balle Clorin]

@JP ,one channel wav ATOC9II/ML

 

[USER]

How does a really cheap MM cartridge perform, Thorens TPU 257=AudioTechnica AT-3600= close to Rega Carbon

Thorens TAS 257 - Muziker

Thorens TAS 257 ✓ Best Price Guarantee ✓ Fast shipping ✓ Return policy up to 30 days ✓ Professional customer service ✓ 25 years on the market

www.muziker.co.uk

The only problem with this cartridge is the high tracking force at 3g, that will wear the records

Clearaudio TRS-1007 test record
View attachment 251716


Channel balance and separation is much better then the specs
View attachment 251717


View attachment 251718

For whatever it's worth, here is my AT3600L on the CBS test record.

 

[USER]

@JP ,one channel wav ATOC9II/ML

View attachment 251770

Here is your file on JP's script.

What are your loading settings?

Edit: just re-read and saw that it was 280pF. Please correct me if I am wrong. This seems to make sense to me as I find AT cartridges to be too hot above 200pF. They are remarkably consistent across the various lines. Anyways, something to think about.

 

[Balle Clorin]

280pF is relevant for the MM, MC as ATOC9II/ML does not care about the capacitance I read, loading is 200ohm

 

[dlaloum]

How does a really cheap MM cartridge perform, Thorens TPU 257=AudioTechnica AT-3600= close to Rega Carbon

Thorens TAS 257 - Muziker

Thorens TAS 257 ✓ Best Price Guarantee ✓ Fast shipping ✓ Return policy up to 30 days ✓ Professional customer service ✓ 25 years on the market

www.muziker.co.uk

The only problem with this cartridge is the high tracking force at 3g, that will wear the records

Clearaudio TRS-1007 test record
View attachment 251716


Channel balance and separation is much better then the specs
View attachment 251717


View attachment 251718

Styli compliant with the old AT3600 spec of 1g to 2g VTF are still available... including in line contact formats:

Audio Technica ATN3600 Series Type Shibata Stylus - our Needle 211-DSH

www.turntableneedles.com

 

[Balle Clorin]

@USER The Clearaudio TRS-1007 track 2 Left sweep recording with Parks Audio Puffin 5-48k 16bit/48k
, Michell Gyro SE, SME V and Thorens TPU257

 

[Balle Clorin]

Investigations..and trobleshooting, I would be greateful for any comments

After adjusting the table and re-mounting the AT OC9II/ML I noticed some resonant peaks in the 100-200hz range on the Ultimate Analog Test LP track 1-3. I was afraid my SME arm needed service. The peaks are there with both carts OC) and Thorens TPU257=AT 3600. But I now found out the peaks vary with the belt I use and are eliminated when recording on a free spinning platter not using motor or belt!! Other test records does not show the peaks as they are hidden in the groove noise , i.e. only visible with low system noise. (I seem to also some new electrical interference,,th 50Hz peak was not there before,)

My conclusion so far is that a even if I do pick up more electrical noise than befoer, the belt condition is creasing some resonance in the system

Initial finding, green lines are 3 month old recording, magenta/blue with new set-up

Different cart

More noise peaks in one channel

Different belt changes peaks, only once channel at 200Hz

Choosing best belt and adding talcum..

Test record so far has was Ultimate analog test record track 1-3

With the best belt and changing test record to Clearaudio TRS-1007 track 1 silent groove after sweep vs 1kHz beep, Problem not visible on this record

 

[atmasphere]

Investigations..and trobleshooting, I would be greateful for any comments

After adjusting the table and re-mounting the AT OC9II/ML I noticed some resonant peaks in the 100-200hz range on the Ultimate Analog Test LP track 1-3. I was afraid my SME arm needed service. The peaks are there with both carts OC) and Thorens TPU257=AT 3600. But I now found out the peaks vary with the belt I use and are eliminated when recording on a free spinning platter not using motor or belt!! Other test records does not show the peaks as they are hidden in the groove noise , i.e. only visible with low system noise. (I seem to also some new electrical interference,,th 50Hz peak was not there before,)

My conclusion so far is that a even if I do pick up more electrical noise than befoer, the belt condition is creasing some resonance in the system

Initial finding, green lines are 3 month old recording, magenta/blue with new set-up
View attachment 251938
Different cart





More noise peaks in one channel



Different belt changes peaks, only once channel at 200Hz




Choosing best belt and adding talcum..


Test record so far has was Ultimate analog test record track 1-3

With the best belt and changing test record to Clearaudio TRS-1007 track 1 silent groove after sweep vs 1kHz beep, Problem not visible on this record

The platter can ring so does need to be damped. The platter pad's job is to kill resonance in the vinyl. This fact is poorly understood. But if you have the volume down and you can hear the stylus tracing the groove that's a bad sign. It should be silent. All of this is easily measured and has a direct effect on what you hear as well. So if you have an undamped platter its really not that surprising to find out that the belt can affect your noise floor. BTW the plinth should be damped as well.

If you look at the Technics SL1200G, you will find that these issues have been addressed except for the platter pad. The platter is damped and the plinth employs a variety of methods to keep it 'dead'. BTW the coupling between the platter bearing and the base of the tonearm is pretty important; it must be very rigid; Technics addressed that as well. If not, vibration can cause the arm to move in a different plane from that of the surface of the platter, resulting in coloration. Of course this is a microscopic phenomena, but the grooves operate on a microscopic scale as well.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Yes I have a SMR platter mat and the Michell clamp , have measured with and without mat before did not notice much diference, will do it again.

Have not dampend the chassis of my Gyro yet but have the Densodamp material to do it. But that requires a full dismantling and arm removal , I dread to to that. Last time I did it 3years ago I screwed up the wow and flutter performance , and I just managed to get it back.

The belt clearly transmit noise to the platter and to the chassis, easy to listen for that with a stethoscope with motor driving the platter and free spinning without belt.
I thought the motor would transmitt most noise via the resing surface and feet, but that is very little ( got sorbothan under motor and mouse mat under chassis feet) , holding the motor in mid air while playing also transmits about the same motor noise to the chassis, so the sinner her is the belt.

I fully agree that hearing music directly from the cartridge with speakers off is not a good sign. It indicates vibrations from “somewhere “ But I do hear some testtones , clamping mat on platter does not eliminate that, I will have to listen more to investigate.


Cannot really measur any difference with or without a platter mat, Maybe a "knock" would reveal more

The wow&flutter data I now get are amazingly good for a Gyro and better than many most of the turntables I have measured. Only one is better on peak variation and that one costs 10 times more

Same data different noise filtering and Excel FFT

 

[Balle Clorin]

Different Wowh&flutter presentation, Thanks to @JP and @USER for helt with the Pyhon script for polar plot

The only one to really trust is the Shakenspin since the turntable belt quality and general turntable setup, record centering etc can cause variation like this, on same test record. Clearaudio TRS-1007. Those with a Technics 1200 or SP10 will not have such variation problems and should result in more valid test records TESTs

 

[JP]

@JP ,one channel wav ATOC9II/ML

View attachment 251770

Highlights the issue with using traditional FFT with octave smoothing.

 

[JP]

The only one to really trust is the Shakenspin since the turntable belt quality and general turntable setup, record centering etc can cause variation like this, on same test record. Clearaudio TRS-1007. Those with a Technics 1200 or SP10 will not have such variation problems and should result in more valid test records TESTs

Record centering and cartridge/arm compatibility issues are the primary extraneous issues outside of test record quality. Things like belt quality will impact the playing of music records too so should not be discounted. IOW, if the drive type is causing issues with a W&F test track, it will also cause the same issues when playing music. If the Shakenspin is masking those issues.....

 

[Balle Clorin]

Which PU do you prefer?
Fil 1

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhtfoQJP0niE-kI5_37Rq8uQuQDb?e=pS30WE

Fil 2

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhtfoQJP0niE-kO-bE53oTXFJjST?e=jfH8oX

PC windows volume is too low so use something else for playback

Poll

Which cartridge do you prefer?

Which cartridge do you prefer? File 1 https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhtfoQJP0niE-kI5_37Rq8uQuQDb?e=pS30WE File 2 https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhtfoQJP0niE-kO-bE53oTXFJjST?e=jfH8oX PC windows volume is too low so use something else for playback

audiosciencereview.com

 

[atmasphere]

Yes I have a SMR platter mat and the Michell clamp , have measured with and without mat before did not notice much diference, will do it again.

Have not dampend the chassis of my Gyro yet but have the Densodamp material to do it. But that requires a full dismantling and arm removal , I dread to to that. Last time I did it 3years ago I screwed up the wow and flutter performance , and I just managed to get it back.

The belt clearly transmit noise to the platter and to the chassis, easy to listen for that with a stethoscope with motor driving the platter and free spinning without belt.
I thought the motor would transmitt most noise via the resing surface and feet, but that is very little ( got sorbothan under motor and mouse mat under chassis feet) , holding the motor in mid air while playing also transmits about the same motor noise to the chassis, so the sinner her is the belt.

I fully agree that hearing music directly from the cartridge with speakers off is not a good sign. It indicates vibrations from “somewhere “ But I do hear some testtones , clamping mat on platter does not eliminate that, I will have to listen more to investigate.


Cannot really measur any difference with or without a platter mat, Maybe a "knock" would reveal more
View attachment 252158

The wow&flutter data I now get are amazingly good for a Gyro and better than many most of the turntables I have measured. Only one is better on peak variation and that one costs 10 times more

View attachment 252156

Same data different noise filtering and Excel FFT
View attachment 252157


View attachment 252162

How do you know your platter pad is doing its job? Based on the above, it appears its not very good at it.

If you can put on an LP and have it playing, give the platter a 'thwock' using your index finger tensioned by your thumb. Can you hear it in the playback? If 'yes, very loud' that's a bad sign- the platter and platter pad are poorly damped. If its not significant you are doing pretty good. Obviously this could be metered more exactly using a tool that administers a knock to the platter so you can get good numbers on how effectively its damped. Poorly damped = increased distortion.

Also it should be noted that any successful tt design will employ a robust drive motor- one seemingly overbuilt for the job. If the platter takes a while to come up to speed you have a problem.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I regret not buying a second hand Orbe platter when I had the chance, that one is more massive. Knocking the platter while spinning is out of the question , this is a lightly floating suspended turntable a knock would definitely send the cartridge jumping. Tapping the edge or weights with a pen is OK but triggers arm/ cart resonance I guess.. I may tap the separate motor an measure the effect on cartridge

 

[Balle Clorin]

effect of sentering records SP10
I think the exaggerated the wow by enlarging the setting the center hole and anf off-center it , the speed variation is 3130 to 3160 which is extreme
NO record will be as bad as this, ,but it shows how it works

 

[atmasphere]

this is a lightly floating suspended turntable a knock would definitely send the cartridge jumping.

Huh? If that is the case then the suspension has a flaw. The arm should always move the same plane as the platter else colorations will be manifest. For that reason if the design is done properly such a test will not do anything to the tracking.

One example of this kind of error is when the arm is on a pedestal or the like that is separate from the plinth to which the platter is mounted. The two must be rigidly coupled!

 

[Balle Clorin]

Platter and arm are rigidly in the same plane of course, but I was afraid that a too hard knock on a spinning platter may trigger the 3,7hz spring suspension resonance, and with an arm-cart resonance of 7hz , a dancing cart may follow . If I jump violently on the floor, that has happened

But I did what you said just now a tapped the platter with my finger quite hard, and nothing happened to the music, nor suspension and no cartridge dance ! but with the needle the lead in groove I could head a faint bump.. Thanks for challenging me !

 

[atmasphere]

with an arm-cart resonance of 7hz , a dancing cart may follow . If I jump violently on the floor, that has happened

But I did what you said just now a tapped the platter with my finger quite hard, and nothing happened to the music, nor suspension and no cartridge dance ! but with the needle the lead in groove I could head a faint bump.. Thanks for challenging me !

That's good news. The patter is apparently damped.

Regarding the floor, place the stand on bearings so as to relieve side to side vibration. You will find that it reacts quite a bit less to footfalls and general floor movement.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Different Wowh&flutter presentation, Thanks to @JP and @USER for helt with the Pyhon script for polar plot
View attachment 252405


The only one to really trust is the Shakenspin since the turntable belt quality and general turntable setup, record centering etc can cause variation like this, on same test record. Clearaudio TRS-1007. Those with a Technics 1200 or SP10 will not have such variation problems and should result in more valid test records TESTs
View attachment 252406

Just an update on the search for a good test record, My Bruel&Kjær QR2010m inherited from a Broadcasting company is still good it seems , very happy now with both test record and turntable

Accelerometer data