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Fun with vinyl measurements

A new web app ( I asked Claude AI to mak it ) for channel balance and crosstalk, see my signature too

1783148960768-png.1208937
 
Why do, almost every time FR, crosstalk and distortion looks more smooth(better) with the Ortofon test record than the Clearaudio, JVC etc.
 
FR of the Ortofon is just plain wrong, it was cut at half speed without the proper 1/2 RIAA compensation.
Crosstalk vary between every record due to different cut, HTA, VTA, Azimuth , SRA and Groove alignment( groves are not necessarily 90 degree to each other.and how the actual cartridge fit those angles….. I posted many record comparisons before here.

Ortofon is common and easy to get, and gets you in the ballpark. (My AT OC9ml2 does not give as good crosstalk on it as AT 540ML)

AP Ultimate Analog test record is also OK, I can get almost -40db on this
Shure TTR-109 gives very low crosstalk on several of my cartridges, hav not tried AT540ML on it yet
Some cartridges gives me almost -40 crosstalk on the CA TRS-1007 FR sweep
 
Repeating myself here... sorry...:oops:


Historically, crosstalk was measured at very clean, fixed frequencies—like 1 kHz or even 10 kHz. However, because the app can output THD and crosstalk figures, we end up using frequency sweeps—originally designed to measure frequency response—for a purpose they weren't really intended for... often clumsily, according to some test records. ;-)
(Just bear in mind that the result is also simply a reflection of the "engraving" level...5cm 8cm etc
;-) )
 
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The discussion of the AT 540ML mapping from library thread can goon int this FUN thread I think

Some discussion regarding the results;

Yes, the 540ML is a very good cartridge for the price with the exception of the peak at HF. It is a bit too low in f to be completely fixed by loading. I got the same results as you within +/- 0.5 dB. Of the ATs I like the 745xML the best, it can be loaded with better results.

The remaining measures look really fine, some observations:

- a little high minima and slightly uneven crosstalk of the Merolemez. If possible I would try adjust to "perfection" and then leave the setting, measure again after ≈30 hours use. Has it shifted to lower values?

- It is better crosstalk here on the Ortofon, and the minima is closer to 90° than you ATOC9 cartridge (?), not so good crosstalk on the CA-TRS1007. Follows my experience here - a higher minima on the Merolemez like 93° get lower crosstalk values on the CA-TRS1007 and higher on the Ortofon. So is the CA-TRS1007 the outlier here?

- HTA: It seems both the Sperling and the STR112 gets you good curve shapes - most likely meaning your cantilever is aligned good. But it's on positive absolute values, so perhaps you have a zenith error. I would expect the Sperling to be around -1 at crossings so it is around +1.5° zenith error. The STR112 is higher values, but that is tracking angle and not phase as the Sperling.

-VTA: Both STR112 method and DIN 45 542 shows similar values, but 1-2° lower with the DIN. I think you found the same in other measurements as well (?)
 
Some discussion regarding the results;


-VTA: Both STR112 method and DIN 45 542 shows similar values, but 1-2° lower with the DIN. I think you found the same in other measurements as well (?)
Yes, DIN record show a bit lower values, on my OC9MLii too.
1783185804616.png
 
Some discussion regarding the results;



The remaining measures look really fine, some observations:

- a little high minima and slightly uneven crosstalk of the Merolemez. If possible I would try adjust to "perfection" and then leave the setting, measure again after ≈30 hours use. Has it shifted to lower values?

-/
The headshell has some wiggle room , so I tried with some different pressure degree7direction when fastening headshell and get this, I leave is as is in the right figure( regretfully left channel had -0.5db level correction active in twist plots below)
1783229777535.png



Then Ortofon crosstalk becomes a bit worse, channel balance the same( se note)
1783244192016.png


OPTIMAL XTALK ON MEROLEMEZ VTA CBS STR112 : 22.24'->22.31', IMD% increase from 7% to 9%


1783233079888.png




Tiny crosstalk improvement in sweep, (no channel balance correction here)
1783235299927.png



Som interesting notes on VTA mismatch


1783238628524.png

1783238577957.png

Which is wat I get in my experiments too
 

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@JP or others do you know any good photo stacking software for microscope images, OSX. Free or cheap ones.
 
No HiFi

IMG_1482.jpeg

IMG_1480.jpeg
 
This is what I'm getting with the STR-112 VTA script measuring the Sony XL-50 SAS/B with an 8º shim. The record is a bit warped at the edge:

Screenshot 2026-07-16 at 2.53.05 PM.png
09d6af83e5d24ff4783b65643031aceb.png


"⚠
LARGE PHASE ANGLE DETECTED (channel L: φ = +127.9°)

|φ| > 70° means the FM deviation and the 399Hz reference are substantially out of phase. Most likely causes:

  1. RIAA equalization applied during recording (most common). RIAA introduces ~50-60° phase shift at 399Hz, rotating φ away from 0° and reducing or inverting the real component. FIX: Re-record with preamp set to FLAT / BYPASS.
  2. High tracing distortion (large imaginary FM component). This is a real physical effect and does not indicate an error — but the HTA/VTA result may still be valid if both channels give the same sign.
If L and R channels show OPPOSITE signs, cause (1) is likely. If L and R channels show the SAME sign, cause (2) is likely.

LARGE PHASE ANGLE DETECTED (channel R: φ = +178.4°)

|φ| > 70° means the FM deviation and the 399Hz reference are substantially out of phase. Most likely causes:

  1. RIAA equalization applied during recording (most common). RIAA introduces ~50-60° phase shift at 399Hz, rotating φ away from 0° and reducing or inverting the real component. FIX: Re-record with preamp set to FLAT / BYPASS.
  2. High tracing distortion (large imaginary FM component). This is a real physical effect and does not indicate an error — but the HTA/VTA result may still be valid if both channels give the same sign.
If L and R channels show OPPOSITE signs, cause (1) is likely. If L and R channels show the SAME sign, cause (2) is likely."

Claude's analysis:

The single most informative thing in your data is something the script's warning text glosses over: RIAA can't be the cause here, because RIAA would rotate both channels by the same amount, and your two channels differ by 50°.RIAA at 399 Hz contributes roughly 55° of phase lag, identically to L and R. If it were in the chain, you'd expect φ_L ≈ φ_R ≈ (true phase − ~55°). Instead you have +127.9° and +178.4°. That asymmetry has to come from something channel-dependent, which points squarely at cause 2 for channel L.

Here's the decomposition that makes everything click. Split each channel's FM deviation into the in-phase (real, cos φ) component, which carries the actual VTA information, and the quadrature (sin φ) component, which is tracing distortion:

  • Ch L: 41.8 Hz × cos(127.9°) = −25.7 Hz in-phase, +33.1 Hz quadrature
  • Ch R: 29.0 Hz × cos(178.4°) = −29.0 Hz in-phase, +0.8 Hz quadrature
The in-phase components are nearly identical. Once you project out the junk, both channels agree, which is exactly what you'd expect since there's only one physical stylus angle. Channel R is essentially a clean measurement: φ = 178.4° is just "in-phase but inverted," i.e., a legitimate negative-sign error, not a fault condition at all. Channel L has the same underlying signal plus a large quadrature contamination that rotated its phase to 128° and inflated its apparent deviation to 41.8 Hz.

This has two uncomfortable consequences for the summary panel:

  1. The L channel's +4.01° reading is an artifact. The script appears to take sign/magnitude from the raw deviation rather than the in-phase projection, so L's answer is corrupted by the quadrature term. Using the script's own implied calibration (~10 Hz per degree, from 29.0 Hz → 2.89°), the corrected L in-phase deviation of −25.7 Hz gives roughly −2.5°, in close agreement with R's −2.89°.
  2. The "AVG VTA 17.06°, no adjustment needed" verdict is probably wrong. It's the average of one valid reading (13.6°) and one contaminated one (20.5°), and they cancel by coincidence. The consistent story from both channels after correction is a VTA of about 13.6 to 14°, roughly 2.5 to 3° below θR = 16.5°. If that holds up, you'd want to raise the tonearm pivot, not leave it alone.
On your note that "both channels say distortion is low": the green checkmark is looking at the 399 Hz second harmonic (−45 dB), which is a different quantity from quadrature FM of the 3960 Hz carrier. The two don't have to agree. And in fact the rest of your data quietly corroborates that L is the worse channel: AM IM% of 5.58 vs 4.06, d2H of 6.23% vs 5.20%. Something is producing asymmetric tracing behavior on the left groove wall contact. The usual suspects are azimuth error, anti-skate side force, VTF at the edge of spec, or asymmetric stylus wear.
 
Very odd result.

Don’t believe 13 degree VTA unless JICO made a correct VTA from start. It should be obvious when looking at the stylus angle.
 
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This is what I'm getting with the STR-112 VTA script measuring the Sony XL-50 SAS/B with an 8º shim. The record is a bit warped at the edge:

View attachment 545340View attachment 545339

"⚠
LARGE PHASE ANGLE DETECTED (channel L: φ = +127.9°)

|φ| > 70° means the FM deviation and the 399Hz reference are substantially out of phase. Most likely causes:

  1. RIAA equalization applied during recording (most common). RIAA introduces ~50-60° phase shift at 399Hz, rotating φ away from 0° and reducing or inverting the real component. FIX: Re-record with preamp set to FLAT / BYPASS.
  2. High tracing distortion (large imaginary FM component). This is a real physical effect and does not indicate an error — but the HTA/VTA result may still be valid if both channels give the same sign.
If L and R channels show OPPOSITE signs, cause (1) is likely. If L and R channels show the SAME sign, cause (2) is likely.

LARGE PHASE ANGLE DETECTED (channel R: φ = +178.4°)

|φ| > 70° means the FM deviation and the 399Hz reference are substantially out of phase. Most likely causes:

  1. RIAA equalization applied during recording (most common). RIAA introduces ~50-60° phase shift at 399Hz, rotating φ away from 0° and reducing or inverting the real component. FIX: Re-record with preamp set to FLAT / BYPASS.
  2. High tracing distortion (large imaginary FM component). This is a real physical effect and does not indicate an error — but the HTA/VTA result may still be valid if both channels give the same sign.
If L and R channels show OPPOSITE signs, cause (1) is likely. If L and R channels show the SAME sign, cause (2) is likely."

Claude's analysis:

The single most informative thing in your data is something the script's warning text glosses over: RIAA can't be the cause here, because RIAA would rotate both channels by the same amount, and your two channels differ by 50°.RIAA at 399 Hz contributes roughly 55° of phase lag, identically to L and R. If it were in the chain, you'd expect φ_L ≈ φ_R ≈ (true phase − ~55°). Instead you have +127.9° and +178.4°. That asymmetry has to come from something channel-dependent, which points squarely at cause 2 for channel L.

Here's the decomposition that makes everything click. Split each channel's FM deviation into the in-phase (real, cos φ) component, which carries the actual VTA information, and the quadrature (sin φ) component, which is tracing distortion:

  • Ch L: 41.8 Hz × cos(127.9°) = −25.7 Hz in-phase, +33.1 Hz quadrature
  • Ch R: 29.0 Hz × cos(178.4°) = −29.0 Hz in-phase, +0.8 Hz quadrature
The in-phase components are nearly identical. Once you project out the junk, both channels agree, which is exactly what you'd expect since there's only one physical stylus angle. Channel R is essentially a clean measurement: φ = 178.4° is just "in-phase but inverted," i.e., a legitimate negative-sign error, not a fault condition at all. Channel L has the same underlying signal plus a large quadrature contamination that rotated its phase to 128° and inflated its apparent deviation to 41.8 Hz.

This has two uncomfortable consequences for the summary panel:

  1. The L channel's +4.01° reading is an artifact. The script appears to take sign/magnitude from the raw deviation rather than the in-phase projection, so L's answer is corrupted by the quadrature term. Using the script's own implied calibration (~10 Hz per degree, from 29.0 Hz → 2.89°), the corrected L in-phase deviation of −25.7 Hz gives roughly −2.5°, in close agreement with R's −2.89°.
  2. The "AVG VTA 17.06°, no adjustment needed" verdict is probably wrong. It's the average of one valid reading (13.6°) and one contaminated one (20.5°), and they cancel by coincidence. The consistent story from both channels after correction is a VTA of about 13.6 to 14°, roughly 2.5 to 3° below θR = 16.5°. If that holds up, you'd want to raise the tonearm pivot, not leave it alone.
On your note that "both channels say distortion is low": the green checkmark is looking at the 399 Hz second harmonic (−45 dB), which is a different quantity from quadrature FM of the 3960 Hz carrier. The two don't have to agree. And in fact the rest of your data quietly corroborates that L is the worse channel: AM IM% of 5.58 vs 4.06, d2H of 6.23% vs 5.20%. Something is producing asymmetric tracing behavior on the left groove wall contact. The usual suspects are azimuth error, anti-skate side force, VTF at the edge of spec, or asymmetric stylus wear.
Funny deviations can occur if you have restricted the audio bandwidth too much,
Or noise or wrong sample rate in ADC vs PC.or choosing lateral for a vertical file.

Make sure to edit off silence and 4000hz tone before and after 400:4000hz sequence, file shall only contain 400:4000hz 6dB signal

Maybe the script needs refinement to detected small deviations from VMA/cutting.( small angle difference more sensitive to noise , accuracy)

Claude found some improvements regarding small deviation and noise, have to wait 3-4 days before I can implement them

EDIT: tried to update app, try new version now

Claude claims it us more accurate and less affected by noise, but VTA becomes 2-3 degrees lower, that us actually closer to the DIN 45 452 record results

New

IMG_1067.png



IMG_1068.png

Vs old
IMG_1065.jpeg


Ways to improve it:





1. Switch to synchronous (lock-in) I/Q demodulation instead of std-based magnitude + separate phase. Correlate the deviation signal against sin/cos at the detected f_low frequency over each segment (or the whole file) to get in-phase/quadrature components directly. This gives you signed F in one step, with coherent averaging that suppresses the noise floor — no separate sign recovery step needed, no Rayleigh bias.


2. Longer coherent integration. Right now segments are ~0.5s / 20 cycles, then median across segments. Near-null SNR benefits far more from longer coherent averaging (locking phase across the whole track and averaging I/Q, not just averaging independent per-segment magnitude estimates afterward).


3. Tighter reference bandwidth around f_low in the deviation signal — the current BPF is f_low ± 0.6·f_low, fairly wide. Narrowing this (now that you auto-detect the exact frequency) reduces the noise/crosstalk bleeding in.


4. Flag low-confidence readings. Add an SNR check (e.g. ratio of F_peak to the noise floor measured just off-tone) and suppress or flag VTA output when SNR is below some threshold, rather than reporting a number that’s mostly noise. This alone would stop users from over-trusting big spurious L/R splits near the null.


5. Cross-check with the sideband method (measure_sidebands), which doesn’t null out near correct VTA the way the FM-deviation path does — it could serve as a stability sanity check when F is small.


Another test case comparison, revised script
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IMG_1076.png
 

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Comparison two diffrent VTA methods, another cartrtidge on another turntable.. both say about 20 degree VTA in this case

1784990667427.png



optical VTA
1785053644197.png


Taking it further comparing crosstalk via Merolemez test record, and tilting cartridge by shims from 4 degree leaning left to no shims
Get perfect match/minimum crosstalk at -0.5 degree azimuth( overlapping curves and same crosstalk phase diff -45/-45 degree

1784990856335.png



The I observe the change in minimum crosstalk and see that cross talk minimum occur at -0.5 tilt at 90 degree azimuth( track 6/11).
Optimal crosstalk-on this record- is when curves overlap to a commin minimum point( regardless of where the minimum is 90' azimuth or 92)
The both crosstalk curves overlap at 90 degree Azimuth indicate that VTA of cartrigde and record is very close
--- nota that in this case the crosstalk stay similar L-R and R-L regardless of azimuth tilt onley the level changes, this is a special case thet probably only occur when cutting angle WMA=VTA and the rest of the universe is aligned too.

The cutting VTA of Ortofon record is unknown, but that Ortofon old test records made for B&K have a VMA of 20, and 20' is close to what I got by here too 2 different VTA methods.

So if Ortofon Record is really 20' VTA nay cartridg with VTA devaiation fform this will give Merolemez common minimum away form 90 degree Azimuth track.



1784991514955.png


1784992566331.png
 

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This is what I'm getting with the STR-112 VTA script measuring the Sony XL-50 SAS/B with an 8º shim. The record is a bit warped at the edge:

View attachment 545340View attachment 545339

"⚠
LARGE PHASE ANGLE DETECTED (channel L: φ = +127.9°)

|φ| > 70° means the FM deviation and the 399Hz reference are substantially out of phase. Most likely causes:

  1. RIAA equalization applied during recording (most common). RIAA introduces ~50-60° phase shift at 399Hz, rotating φ away from 0° and reducing or inverting the real component. FIX: Re-record with preamp set to FLAT / BYPASS.
  2. High tracing distortion (large imaginary FM component). This is a real physical effect and does not indicate an error — but the HTA/VTA result may still be valid if both channels give the same sign.
If L and R channels show OPPOSITE signs, cause (1) is likely. If L and R channels show the SAME sign, cause (2) is likely.

LARGE PHASE ANGLE DETECTED (channel R: φ = +178.4°)

|φ| > 70° means the FM deviation and the 399Hz reference are substantially out of phase. Most likely causes:

  1. RIAA equalization applied during recording (most common). RIAA introduces ~50-60° phase shift at 399Hz, rotating φ away from 0° and reducing or inverting the real component. FIX: Re-record with preamp set to FLAT / BYPASS.
  2. High tracing distortion (large imaginary FM component). This is a real physical effect and does not indicate an error — but the HTA/VTA result may still be valid if both channels give the same sign.
If L and R channels show OPPOSITE signs, cause (1) is likely. If L and R channels show the SAME sign, cause (2) is likely."

Claude's analysis:

The single most informative thing in your data is something the script's warning text glosses over: RIAA can't be the cause here, because RIAA would rotate both channels by the same amount, and your two channels differ by 50°.RIAA at 399 Hz contributes roughly 55° of phase lag, identically to L and R. If it were in the chain, you'd expect φ_L ≈ φ_R ≈ (true phase − ~55°). Instead you have +127.9° and +178.4°. That asymmetry has to come from something channel-dependent, which points squarely at cause 2 for channel L.

Here's the decomposition that makes everything click. Split each channel's FM deviation into the in-phase (real, cos φ) component, which carries the actual VTA information, and the quadrature (sin φ) component, which is tracing distortion:

  • Ch L: 41.8 Hz × cos(127.9°) = −25.7 Hz in-phase, +33.1 Hz quadrature
  • Ch R: 29.0 Hz × cos(178.4°) = −29.0 Hz in-phase, +0.8 Hz quadrature
The in-phase components are nearly identical. Once you project out the junk, both channels agree, which is exactly what you'd expect since there's only one physical stylus angle. Channel R is essentially a clean measurement: φ = 178.4° is just "in-phase but inverted," i.e., a legitimate negative-sign error, not a fault condition at all. Channel L has the same underlying signal plus a large quadrature contamination that rotated its phase to 128° and inflated its apparent deviation to 41.8 Hz.

This has two uncomfortable consequences for the summary panel:

  1. The L channel's +4.01° reading is an artifact. The script appears to take sign/magnitude from the raw deviation rather than the in-phase projection, so L's answer is corrupted by the quadrature term. Using the script's own implied calibration (~10 Hz per degree, from 29.0 Hz → 2.89°), the corrected L in-phase deviation of −25.7 Hz gives roughly −2.5°, in close agreement with R's −2.89°.
  2. The "AVG VTA 17.06°, no adjustment needed" verdict is probably wrong. It's the average of one valid reading (13.6°) and one contaminated one (20.5°), and they cancel by coincidence. The consistent story from both channels after correction is a VTA of about 13.6 to 14°, roughly 2.5 to 3° below θR = 16.5°. If that holds up, you'd want to raise the tonearm pivot, not leave it alone.
On your note that "both channels say distortion is low": the green checkmark is looking at the 399 Hz second harmonic (−45 dB), which is a different quantity from quadrature FM of the 3960 Hz carrier. The two don't have to agree. And in fact the rest of your data quietly corroborates that L is the worse channel: AM IM% of 5.58 vs 4.06, d2H of 6.23% vs 5.20%. Something is producing asymmetric tracing behavior on the left groove wall contact. The usual suspects are azimuth error, anti-skate side force, VTF at the edge of spec, or asymmetric stylus wear.
Just a question - sure you took the vertical cut groove? I just did the same mistake and got weird values. When I realised, and used the correct one - all things good...
 
Effect of Q-damping in electronic arm setting JVC QL-Y5F..as is not serviced.Q00L is zero Q-damping, Q2L is setting 2 for VTF2, more Q has no effect
Cartridge is AT540ML at VTF=2

1785416557199.png




using a A python script, with Q=0 and with Q=2

1785565603717.png
 
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Just a question - sure you took the vertical cut groove? I just did the same mistake and got weird values. When I realised, and used the correct one - all things good...
Thanks - I thought I did, but I will have to double check.
 
So microscope is up. Been playing a bit today. First experience - how to clean up a stylus before taking picture was easier said than done. I need to practice on that. Now I just need to play with the light and getting myself a stacking software.

P8040065.JPG
 
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