Fun with vinyl measurements

[Balle Clorin]

A new TT reports for duty, and it is alive and working.The Denon 51F will be sold.

 

[sqrl]

A new TT reports for duty, and it is alive and working.The Denon 51F will be sold.
View attachment 537943

Have you fully qualifivfed to operate it?

 

[Nomid]

congrats, what made you exchange to this deck? I would think performance might be similar, with an edge to the Denon perhaps? I also recently got a new table i am waiting to get refurbished, the Sony PS-X555ES, i got a Shure V15-VMR and a jico SAS stylus for it too, so cant wait to see how a linear tracker with proper setup will measure..

 

[Balle Clorin]

I wanted a standard head shell, and a more solid arm than 51F, the JVC is much quieter mechanically ( stethoscope test) , have not checked electronic noise floor but it is very good when looking at Puffin noise floor display.
JVC effective arm mass is about 20 15g more than both the 51F and my SME V. Have to investigate the impacts , Q damp should help.
Speed is on 33.3

The Denon benefited greatly by a recap, both on VTF accuacy and Q damping. So I will eventually do that on the JVC too.

W&F is the best I have ever measured

Electronic damping fo the arm, Q damping set at 2 is moderate. largest peak reduction is 10 dB, seems to work in a lower range than Denon did

Cartridge response is normal, no attempt to optimize azimuth here,

ARM COMPARISON: AnalogMagik V2 Pink Noise often relevant resonances on 20-500 hz, very litlte such here

If anyone need help on raising the tonearm on a JVC QL-Y5F I posted the trick here…

Post in thread 'JVC QL-?? owners thread'
https://audiokarma.org/forums/threads/jvc-ql-owners-thread.909550/post-18368600

 

[Thomas_A]

So, with the help of the record STR-112 and @Balle Clorin VTA script, I tested my two JICO stylii of the V15V at two different VTFs and with brush up and down. Both stylii included a 6° shimmed cartridge.

Take home messages;

• The brush contributes to 0.15-0.20 gf of force. The recommended range for the JICO SAS/B is 1.0-1.5 gf, and should WITH brush be 1.2-1.7 gf. Fits well with the 0,2 gf measured by brush mass.
• The VTA of the older stylus (ca 100-120 h of use) is higher than that of the new (30 h of use)
• The vertical compliance of the new stylus is lower, in the range of 17-20 cu vs. the older of 30-35 cu (assuming a cantilever length of 6 mm). I also know that the older tracks up to 100 µm while the new one only tracks up to 70 µm. They also measure different in the Merolemez azimuth test, and crosstalk between records. The new stylus measures better on crosstalk on the CA-TRS1007 and the old stylus measures better on the Ortofon test record. The new stylus do not have the typical high end lift,
• Confirms that these JICO stylii have high VTA, 29-33°

 

[mackat]

Here's a good demonstration of the crosstalk issue that I have seen with the Clearaudio CA-TRS-1007 and some cartridges.

The following two were taken without any change in setup.

This stylus may have some wear, but it didn't look like much to me. More distortion than expected, though. I don't think the diamond is perfectly vertical.

CA-TRS-1007

Original JVC TRS-1007

 

[sqrl]

Here's a good demonstration of the crosstalk issue that I have seen with the Clearaudio CA-TRS-1007 and some cartridges.

The following two were taken without any change in setup.

This stylus may have some wear, but it didn't look like much to me. More distortion than expected, though. I don't think the diamond is perfectly vertical.

CA-TRS-1007

View attachment 538459

Original JVC TRS-1007



View attachment 538460

The average channel separation looks a lot closer between the two test LPs than the channel differences, around -25-29 Hz except for <200 Hz.

The distortion does look off. I'm in the middle of comparing some styli on a X-1 body and a moderately worn DT-X1II looks a bit more as expected. No shimming.

 

[mackat]

The average channel separation looks a lot closer between the two test LPs than the channel differences, around -25-29 Hz except for <200 Hz.

The distortion does look off. I'm in the middle of comparing some styli on a X-1 body and a moderately worn DT-X1II looks a bit more as expected. No shimming.

You mean an average of -25 to -29 dB, right?

This is very intriguing. Your distortion numbers are extremely low for a new stylus, let alone a moderately worn one. This is also with an original TRS-1007?

Here are 2 measurements I did of an X-1 with 2 different X-1 styli. Stylus 1 has a seemingly okay suspension with unknown use, the other has a practically collapsed suspension and is likely unused.

I'll have to try the X-1II stylus in the X-1 body, though I don't expect a big change.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Playing with my new JVC.. a AT 95E with and without Skimming.

Adjusting the refercence HTA angle to see how HTA data fits theory( before shimming)

 

[Thomas_A]

Surprisingly high VTA of that AT 95E. Is it confirmed by DIN 45 452 or visual?

 

[sqrl]

You mean an average of -25 to -29 dB, right?

This is very intriguing. Your distortion numbers are extremely low for a new stylus, let alone a moderately worn one. This is also with an original TRS-1007?

Here are 2 measurements I did of an X-1 with 2 different X-1 styli. Stylus 1 has a seemingly okay suspension with unknown use, the other has a practically collapsed suspension and is likely unused.

I'll have to try the X-1II stylus in the X-1 body, though I don't expect a big change.

View attachment 538472View attachment 538473

Hi, no it's the Clearaudio one. I have the JVC with good lateral and vertical tracks, but the L and R sweeps are trashed. Here's the stylus

... which actually looks less worn than I remember it.

 

[Balle Clorin]

Surprisingly high VTA of that AT 95E. Is it confirmed by DIN 45 452 or visual?

I was surprised too, not done verification by DIN yet, but a good idea
452 95E no shim
@Thomas_A


Had to realigne for a reason , overhang 5mm longer here in this comparison.

 

[Laush]

Good morning, I have two test records: CA-TRS-1007 and Ortofon. When measuring with the CA-TRS-1007, the crosstalk for some t4p phono cartridges looks strange. How can I use the Ortofon test record to check crosstalk? Will the script https://sjplot.com/online/ work correctly for this functionality only?

Thank you and best regards.

 

[mackat]

Hi, no it's the Clearaudio one. I have the JVC with good lateral and vertical tracks, but the L and R sweeps are trashed. Here's the stylus

View attachment 538571View attachment 538576View attachment 538573View attachment 538575... which actually looks less worn than I remember it.

Thank you! I will have to do some more measurements with the CA-TRS-1007 and take a closer look at my styli.

 

[sqrl]

Good morning, I have two test records: CA-TRS-1007 and Ortofon. When measuring with the CA-TRS-1007, the crosstalk for some t4p phono cartridges looks strange. How can I use the Ortofon test record to check crosstalk? Will the script https://sjplot.com/online/ work correctly for this functionality only?

Thank you and best regards.

Hi Laush - I think I saw you on the Waxwing thread - doesn't the Waxwing have a method for crosstalk, for which you can use the 1 kHz tones on the Ortofon record? You can also measure crosstalk across the 20-20,000 Hz range of the TRS-1007 with the online phono cartridge response script. If you have easily adjustable azimuth, very slight changes can bring the left and right crosstalk traces closer or further apart in amplitude using the script method. I would pay less attention to less easily localized bass frequencies and above ~10,000 Hz, where it varies a lot between different tracks or copies of the Clearaudio TRS-1007.

 

[Laush]

Cześć Laush - chyba widziałem cię na wątku Waxwing - czy Waxwing nie ma metody przesłuchu, do której można użyć tonów 1 kHz na płycie Ortofon? Możesz także mierzyć przesłuchy w zakresie 20–20 000 Hz urządzenia TRS-1007 za pomocą skryptu odpowiedzi na wkładkę gramofonową online. Jeśli masz łatwo regulowany azymut, bardzo niewielkie zmiany mogą zbliżyć lub oddalić od siebie lewe i prawe ślady przesłuchu pod względem amplitudy za pomocą metody skryptu. Mniejszą uwagę poświęciłbym częstotliwościom basowym, które trudniej zlokalizować i przekraczają ~10 000 Hz, gdzie częstotliwość ta znacznie różni się w zależności od utworu lub kopii Clearaudio TRS-1007.

Hi, you noticed correctly - I have a waxwing. My turntable is a Technics SL-10 - linear with a T4P mount without the possibility of azimuth correction. I use the script and TRS-1007 test record, but as I wrote earlier, the crosstalk response is strange for some phono cartridges and I would like to check it using an Ortofon disc.

 

[sqrl]

Hi, you noticed correctly - I have a waxwing. My turntable is a Technics SL-10 - linear with a T4P mount without the possibility of azimuth correction. I use the script and TRS-1007 test record, but as I wrote earlier, the crosstalk response is strange for some phono cartridges and I would like to check it using an Ortofon disc.

If you mean using the Ortofon sweeps, you can record them into Audacity, then use Thomas_A's Nyquist filter at the Nyquist prompt (> Tools > Nyquist Prompt) see here. Then you need to create two .wav files, one for the left channel and one for the right channel. Trim exactly at the beginning and end of the frequency sweep. For the right channel .wav, use Swap Stereo Channels in Audacity. Use the Advanced tab in the online plot, import the left and right .wav files, set Sweep Extraction to No Extraction and the frequency range to 800-20,000 Hz.

 

[Thomas_A]

If you mean using the Ortofon sweeps, you can record them into Audacity, then use Thomas_A's Nyquist filter at the Nyquist prompt (> Tools > Nyquist Prompt) see here. Then you need to create two .wav files, one for the left channel and one for the right channel. Trim exactly at the beginning and end of the frequency sweep. For the right channel .wav, use Swap Stereo Channels in Audacity. Use the Advanced tab in the online plot, import the left and right .wav files, set Sweep Extraction to No Extraction and the frequency range to 800-20,000 Hz.

To be accurate JPs correction is the correct one here:

Frequency Response Test Records

So now we know it the first original that has the blip at 12k, and Issue 2 that has no blip, but a possible drop in one channel . I will test my issue 2 this weekend.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[sqrl]

To be accurate JPs correction is the correct one here:

Frequency Response Test Records

So now we know it the first original that has the blip at 12k, and Issue 2 that has no blip, but a possible drop in one channel . I will test my issue 2 this weekend.

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thanks

 

[Nomid]

Hi Laush.

I have the Technics SL-7 and waxwing, equipped with a P202c T4P and Jico SAS stylus. I have run several tests on the TRS-1007 and Ortofon, and i have gotten different results on the crosstalk (crosstalk on Ortofon test LP is checked within waxwing app as azimuth).
my end conclusion is the same as Thomas and several others have experienced in regards to crosstalk values on the TRS-1007 record, it simply differs from other test LPs (using the frequency measurement script) for so far, unknown reasons.
When i get the chance, i will try and run some tests again so we can look at it and compare.
We know T4P is supposed to be a hassle free solution and work decently enough without fine tuning, having run several of Technics T4P cartridges, (P24, P202C, P30, P33....) and exact same Jico stylus mounted and measured on them. I can say that the cartridges vary with same stylus, but crosstalk suffers from same differences between Ortofon and TRS-1007. Biggest differences in the T4P cartridges are that they seem to be angled a bit differently, so VTA, distortion and to some degree azimuth, differs. But the trend is that the TRS-1007 shows markedly different results in crosstalk values than Ortofon for instance

By the way, i find these Technics linear decks to be quite a decent solution with the waxwing and a Jico SAS, mind you i think the waxwing is key for this as it allows you to have a DSP solution for resonance peaks and other perks. T4P is somewhat limited
I tried a couple of different stylus, but the SAS was definitely worth it measurement wise