kab damper so vertical. i wish i would have done some research into that before buying them!
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Fun with vinyl measurements
- Thread starter Balle Clorin
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I purchased the Moerch DP-8 arm which is laterally damped but with an option to damp vertical as well, but it is not recommended by Moerch to do so. It can be done and adjusted. And even if it does work to dampen the oscillation it may have effects on tracking force due to the resistance when riding warps. Damping at the stylus have less impact on that, as I’ve understood. Like Shure.
So then there is something with the tracking. It could be either some strange damping that causes it not to track warps (no clue what or if possible) or that the friction somewhere is too large in relation to the tracking force. But that would have been resolved if tracking force was increased, which I presume you've already tested.
yes, i tried many different tracking forces. high, low, in between. i really wanted this cart to work out!
But then you had two stylii where the newest one was worse than the older worn one. Unit to unit variation or that the older one is more worn or suspension a bit sagged.
Just a few more questions.
- Optically, is VTA similar of these two stylii given the same TF?
- Did both stylii do tracking tests well?
- Did you try shim it to get VTA down? Known to be ≈30° of these units when new.
tried the pats audio angled shim im using with the sas. no audible difference. visually, both were about the same vta with no sag. both had considerably more imd than most of my other carts when using @Balle Clorin’s script on the shure era v combined tone trackability tests. when i get home ill throw the mp-30 into that out of phase graph as well.
Bland_username42069
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I’ll be switching to audio technica after seeing all of this
Very strange. Would love to hear what Nagaoka would say about all this.
heres the graph with the mp-30 compared to the two mp-500 styli along with a new vn5mr and the at ml170 for reference. the mp-30 performs the best out of the 3 nags. unfortunately the performance range for the nags goes from terrible to this is f'n ridiculous.
im also including the imd script output for the shure, ml170 and the newer nag mp-500 stylus on the mp-30 body.
OP
Balle Clorin
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We thank you for doing the research for us! I have read a lot about Nagaoka and not came a cross this fuzzy sibilants problem before so you saved me a lot if money- frequency response is not everything to care about for sure.
. I am surprised the YouTuber praising Nagaoka did not notice the problem, maybe it us revised design thing, or the problem is only in 500-700?
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Balle Clorin
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The IMD vs time script is useful too, shows more
i had a 110 years ago and never noticed anything odd and i bought the 100 after experiencing this and it was fine. but those dont seem to do anything to damp the typical cantilever resonances. the mp-30 with its boron cantilever measures 2db down at 20k with the drop starting from 1 or 2k. i just cant believe im surprised i havent seen more reports of this. all ive seen is really positive reviews. the fact that this is still going on with the mp-700 with a microridge is a problem. i was open to the fact that maybe i was doing something wrong, but i spent an embarrassingly long time making adjustments to no avail. i can mount pretty much any cartridge without much thought and not experience these issues.
All this is quite mysterious. Mistracking it seems since it has both vertical and some lateral excess motion. But the largest portion is vertical and thats why it sounds better in mono.
Since you have all files at hand is it possible to show fr response of the pure mono conversion (to show the in phase lateral signal)?
Since you have all files at hand is it possible to show fr response of the pure mono conversion (to show the in phase lateral signal)?
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Here is another analysis of MP500 and V15V vs CD in and out of phase, and difference signal. If around zero, there is no deviation of stylus movement. If the stylus would loose contact one wall and ride up the other wall you would get about equal lateral and vertical movement. If difference only occurs out of phase (vertical) and no extra lateral movement In phase), the stylus has contact with the walls but is moving purely vertical, like tracing error.
First the out of phase (vertical movement). As before, larger with the MP500, indicating vertical movement. This Shure unit has some of it as well.
Lateral movement, in phase. It's there as well but less than vertical. To know for sure of this is due to mistracking one need to know of generator azimuth is perfect since any small deviation, a slight tilt in vertical movement vs generator, can result in lateral signal. A "pure" mistracking should lead to similar rise in lateral/vertical. which it does not. So still a mystery to me what is happening. Stylus bottoming out, poor fit?
First the out of phase (vertical movement). As before, larger with the MP500, indicating vertical movement. This Shure unit has some of it as well.
Lateral movement, in phase. It's there as well but less than vertical. To know for sure of this is due to mistracking one need to know of generator azimuth is perfect since any small deviation, a slight tilt in vertical movement vs generator, can result in lateral signal. A "pure" mistracking should lead to similar rise in lateral/vertical. which it does not. So still a mystery to me what is happening. Stylus bottoming out, poor fit?
With @essence files and the MP700 the story is a little different. The difference files increase both similarly in and out of phase until 7 kHz, indicating lateral+vertical movement and thus mistracking. Again though with a bit higher for the vertical movement. Above 7 kHz they deviate, with much more vertical than lateral movement. indicating that tracing error dominates. Below is relative comparison with track B vs A (MP700 vs. the AT). One error source is probably the frequency response difference here but at 4-6k essence measurements don't show much difference of the two cartridges.
An edit of the interpretation. A difference in phase between L and R may of course also cause this and if two cartridges have different phase between L and R there would be a different output when the files are mixed to mono. I am not sure though what the amount difference would be for eg 1 degree phase diff at 1 kHz caused by eg zenith differences. I would have to test that.
An edit of the interpretation. A difference in phase between L and R may of course also cause this and if two cartridges have different phase between L and R there would be a different output when the files are mixed to mono. I am not sure though what the amount difference would be for eg 1 degree phase diff at 1 kHz caused by eg zenith differences. I would have to test that.
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i apologize for not following, but what did you do to the files? what steps were taken to get an individual trace?
I just took a reference, the CD, and made the difference arithmetic in REW |A/B| to see the difference between the files rather than plotting the actual track data. Eg A=MP500 B=CD track. And did that for tracks of mono files and mono files where one channel was inverted.
sqrl
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Nice! Did you get them 3D printed? Sorry if I missed any earlier discussion of this.
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