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Fun with vinyl measurements

But not this

I'm not really following along, but versions since 18.6.0 use a different and more robust detection algorithm for sweep extraction. In the current code around line 772 is a table of test record parameters so you know what "markers" need to exist in the audio file.

The script needs to be able to ascertain the end of the first (left) pilot tone within the first 30s of the file. If sweep_start_detect = 0, it'll assume the sweep starts immediately after the end of the pilot tone. It'll then search for the end of the sweep between sweep_end_min and sweep_end_max, the starting point of which is the start of the sweep.

For the second sweep it'll start to look for the second (right) channel pilot tone at sweep_offset seconds from the start of first sweep, and it needs to find end of that pilot tone within 30s, and on with the same remaining steps from the first run.

The pilot tone must be 1kHz. When sweep_start_detect is used it begins looking for a rising frequency from 1-10s after the end of the pilot. End dectection is just a dop of amplitude.

Armed with what it's doing you could probably add an entry to the record_params table that conforms to your file.
 
Continuing on the azimuth and crosstalk issue in this post, but no measurements as yet, only a reasoning about the effects.

Most of us know that azimuth is affecting the crosstalk, but in a left to right crosstalk balance. This is because the angles of coils need to be symmetrical to the groove wall angles. Also the phase can be used to monitor issues. Nothing strange about that. This post is about the absolute values, that both differ between cartridges and between test records.

I say the answer to that issue is the vertical modulation angle (VMA) of the record vs. the vertical tracking angle of the cartridge (VTA). A perfect match will give the lowest possible crosstalk since you will get a 45° modulation angle from the 45° groove ("no" leakage to opposite channel). When VTA is mismatched, the reproducing angle will not be 45° but perhaps 47° or 42° (since tilting a groove triangle change its angles when viewed from the front). In the example of 42°, you will get an out of phase crosstalk signal (in both channels, as long as azimuth is perfect), while a value or 47° will give an in-phase signal of the crosstalk signals. Now, the degrees that VTA has to be changed to adjust it is not the same as those difference, but an out-of phase signal should equal to a too high VTA and vice versa (needs some more thinking though).

The above if true explains why different test records can give different cross-talk, since the VMA is different. We have no idea of the VMA of a particular record but can only make a good guess (see below of standards*) by taking the mean between different test records and leave it at that. One could e.g. use the 50°-40° azimuth test of the Merolemez record to set it perfectly at 45° by adjusting VTA (eidt: this is probably not possible since this is determined by the symmetry of the generator which needs to be correct from start). Or taking a mean between the Ortofon test record and the CA-TRS1007, which seems to be quite different in terms of crosstalk (and thus VMA).

The above also explains why varying VTF also affects azimuth somewhat, since VTF also affects VTA even though it is small. Changing VTA is not easy since cartridges may vary between 20°-30° or even higher. They need to be shimmed at the head shell to get significant results. Theoretically, an incorrectly set VTA could affect the lowest bass and highs since the crosstalk is generally the highest at the frequency extremes. Energy is basically lost in the crosstalk. I did one experiment to test this, but could see no or only very small effect below 50 Hz or so, but really nothing in the high end. This could because crosstalk was sufficiently low not to affect the result (in that case).

It is probably not the whole story since not on the angle of the stylus may matter, but also the angle of the internal coils (for an MM).

*VMA has also been different through history and since 1960s it was 15-20°, revised to 15-25° and from 1981/1987 (DIN45547/IEC98) it was revised further to 20-25°. I think the JVC TRS1007 dates back to 1978, but what the VMA it is cut with is unknown to me. Merolemez was released 1984, and the Flokason/Ortofon is in comparison much more recent (2016).

Thanks to Yosh pages that contains so much information but not always easy to penetrate. The above is with reservation that I've not yet made all required measurements to confirm this. But Yosh do have nice Excel sheets to simulate this and many other things.

 
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I could not follow your thought quite sine I hav difficulty imaging how the VTA would affect the Azimuth.

I like the figure here is shows how azimuth and phase between channel and crosstalk is related and explain why phase change when azimuth is tilted..
Post in thread 'Fun with vinyl measurements'
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...un-with-vinyl-measurements.20278/post-2096433
Yes, that is azimuth, which we all know. If you tilt a triangle 20° (that is how cutter cuts the groove at 20° VMA) and view it from the front, the angles are not 45°/-45°. This is a cartoon from Yosh pages and a table of crosstalk effects. (Note: not azimuth effects but crosstalk effects)

1764884945028.png
 
I see , but this is a projection . Maybe that represents the true movement butThe wall angle is still the same.. I wish I had a 3-D model to picture all the relative movements. I would need a Arche headshell to confirm by measurement, but I don’t have that..yet, maybe I could use the DIN VTA test record to see if Crosstalk changes when VTA change, but the VT tracks are 2 channel. Hmm

Maybe a VTA change on the Azimuth track on Merolemez, but a VTA change in and if the arm may change azimuth too, I wish you can find a time to do some experiments
 
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I see , but this is a projection . Maybe that represents the true movement butThe wall angle is still the same.. I wish I had a 3-D model to picture all the relative movements. I would need a Arche headshell to confirm by measurement, but I don’t have that..yet, maybe I could use the DIN VTA test record to see if Crosstalk changes when VTA change, but the VT tracks are 2 channel. Hmm

Maybe a VTA change on the Azimuth track on Merolemez, but a VTA change in and if the arm may change azimuth too, I wish you can find a time to do some experiments
Yes it is a projection for illustrative reasons. But the stylus arc movement can also be viewed as a projection which must match the VMA arc. The wall angle is 45° at the VMA inclination angle, but will not be that for other angles (e.g. a non-matched VTA angle). I think you could try the Merolemez and adjust arm height at their end angles to check if absolute values change. Merolemez result should be symmetric L and R for azimuth correction, e.g. +46°/-46° while the absolute values are "cartridge specific". This probably means stylus VTA/VMA matching results (+ perhaps generator VMA which also can be asymmetric). One would need a bit more change than arm can give to see any larger effects though.

In time I will do an experiment but it is a bit time-consuming to re-mount and align with shims and as you know, Christmas is coming, so time is not a friend.
 
for @Thomas_A

VTA Shimming Shure V15-iv JICO SASB 6 degrees : balanced Azimuth to match crosstalk L/R on CA TRS-1007 sweep
  • VTA change detected on DIN VTA record, but IMD higher at new VTA, DIN adviced interpotltion inidcate 20.6 degreee VTA , optical 23.5, down from 28-29
  • Reduce 2 order distortion by 10db across 3150hz record track in ClearaudioTrackability record
  • Makes Crosstalk 10db worse on Analog Production Ultlimate analog test record, and 3-4 db worse on Ortofon record
  • Crosstalk very good on Clearaudio Trackability record 35/38 and Merolemez crosstalk is symmetrical at 47 groove angle with -48/-42 db!!
  • VTF affect cross talk 1-25 gram to 3 gram gives -25 to -31 on ortofon record
  • Less variation of phase difference along 15 minute track, may be effect for realignment too... from 8 degree til 2.5 degree with better shape too

1765042136036.png


1765041449085.png

1765041552390.png

1765041610038.png

TIME SERIES OF PHASE DIFFERENCE RIGHT -LEFT, AND DISTORTION 3150HZ Clearaudio Trackability record 3150ha 15 minutes
1765041725577.png

side A L R and Mono and tracking
1765041931733.png
 
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So my guess is correct. Changing VTA changes cross-talk and also gives different results on different records. Worse on Ortofon and AP but better on Clearaudii. If your visual is 23.5 degree and the IMD is approximated to 20.6 and Merolemez is lowest at 47 degrees it may be too much adjustment here.

Just a questin what was the value of the Merolomez before shimming?
 
46
47 corection

before VTA shim
1765086867563.png

-6 degree shim on VTA
1765086927710.png
 
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I expected an increase but 46 to 47 is a small inrease. Something else is contributing. Looking at the total I would guess that a compromise would be an effective VTA of 24-25 degrees.
 
Going from -15 to -25 db distortion on inner groove is a quite big improvement…need to check with some music..
 
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Going from -15 to -25 db distortion on inner groove is a quite big improvement…need to check with some music..
Yes. A mono signal 3150 Hz. However not much change on the sweep regarding distortion. But if I read correctly crosstalk is worse on AP and Ortofon but a bit better on the CA-TRS1007 sweep. Still don’t really get the 47 degree minimum on the Merolemez though.

If you look at the crosstalk signal of the sweep is in in or out of phase with the main signal?
 
So... does this mean that the Clearaudio record is actually useful (enough) for VTA/Azimuth calibration?
 
The only record I trust for VTA is CBS STR -112 and DIN 45 452. They are vertically modulated , the others are not. For Azimuth I am now officially confused..Ortofon an d Ultimate I thought were good , both obviously not for this Jico . The ClearAudio Trackability record are good both on the Jico SASB and my AT A OC9ml2. On the CA sweep. Azimuth changes crosstalk of course.
1765086771212.png

1765086794202.png
My problem is that on the Jico I can’t change VTA independently, with shim everything everything else is disturbed.

On be inner tracks on CA TRS1007 sweep the Jico now looses the highs…my specimen always rolled off early
 
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I expected an increase but 46 to 47 is a small inrease. Something else is contributing. Looking at the total I would guess that a compromise would be an effective VTA of 24-25 degrees.
correction it as 47 post updated. (confused since In have one good and one bad Merolemez record.- mistracking /damaged.)
 
Yes. A mono signal 3150 Hz. However not much change on the sweep regarding distortion. But if I read correctly crosstalk is worse on AP and Ortofon but a bit better on the CA-TRS1007 sweep. Still don’t really get the 47 degree minimum on the Merolemez though.

If you look at the crosstalk signal of the sweep is in in or out of phase with the main signal?
not same EQ in recording but...

1765089097773.png
 
46
47 corection

before VTA shim
View attachment 495661
-6 degree shim on VTA
View attachment 495662
Hm then it means the angle is the generator geometry. Only the azimuth phase changed to what is logical when you shimmed it. It should switch from 180 to 0. Your unshimmed one looks weird though. Too many degrees.

Also note VMA of the cutter change with feequency.
 
My experience is that phase flips when azimuth passes the “mid point “ .As described by Adjust+. Makes sense when looking at the figure I posted recently. Frequency change and noise can cause phase misinterpretation on low signal. The best is to look at CoolEdit phase plot when determining phase in or out of phase.
 
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My experience is that phase flips when azimuth passes the “mid point “ .As described by Adjust+. Makes sense when looking at the figure I posted recently. Frequency change and noise can cause phase misinterpretation on low signal. The best is to look at CoolEdit phase plot when determining phase in or out of phase.
It should do so yes. What I can se though is that the CA-TRS1007 got better crosstalk (≈5 dB), while the Ortofon got worse. Which again suggests to me that VTA is affecting crosstalk/phase and that you will get different results from different records (VMA have ranged from 15-25° through history). Standard VMA is 20°-25° according to latest standard and you got ≈21° with the DIN test record (=VTA during play) after shimming and ≈28° before shimming. That is a 7° difference; about 1° more than your 6° visual. If Ortofon VMA is closer to 25° and Clearaudio to 20°, this can explain findings. If Clearaudio made an "exact copy" of the TRS-1007, it may well have a VMA as low as 15°, since it is from the seventies.

I think anyhow the shim for your Shure is a bit too much. 3° would probably be a good compromise for modern records. Going by test records after you shimmed it, you are probably 2-3° too low VTA.
 
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So... does this mean that the Clearaudio record is actually useful (enough) for VTA/Azimuth calibration?
While not strict a VTA, you will see variation in absolute crosstalk depending on VTA. That some cartridges don't go as low depends however on the generator symmetry (seen by the Merolemez record). If the records vary 20-25° in VMA you will see differences if your VTA is on the high or low side. Below is about 2-3° shim (shimmed Shure V15V JICO SASB) with Ortofon/CA-TRS1007 sweep.

Ortofon ≈-34 dB (blue), CA-TRS1007 ≈ -20 dB (red)

1765140201388.png

With my previous Shure V15Vx and JICO SAS B a 7° shim:

CA-TRS1007 (≈35-40 dB at 1 kHz)
1765140614886.png

Ortofon (≈24 dB at 1 kHz)
1765140724307.png


Now the findings are still preliminary, needs to be done systematically, with various shims. Plans for that after Christmas. But it seems to me that @Balle Clorin 's result is in the same direction.
 
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