Fun with vinyl measurements

[Thomas_A]

My 2A1 track is damaged.
View attachment 482801
View attachment 482800
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View attachment 482798

Looks as if JVC has less drop than Clearaudio; abot 1 dB difference vs Clearaudio at 20 kHz.

 

[USER]

My 2A1 track is damaged.

Yeah, seems like wear or damage. But before you throw out the record try flattening it --at least for any data it could offer.

 

[JP]

It's groove damage - "piling" affect noted by Shure back in the day.

 

[GuidoK]

Looks good I think. Anti-skate 50-80um is OK I think,

That is way too much for setting anti-skate. Even 50µm is way to much.
On a 9" tonearm, a 50µm (well....49µm in my case) 300Hz testtrack needs about 18% of the VTF as AS force whereas roughly 15% is needed on a very loud DMM record (in this case I took the chorus part of seeds of love from tears for fears) and roughly 13%-13,5% on a fairly loud part of a more modern record (I took the chorus of get lucky from Daft punk on the RAM album)
Measured with an Orsonic side force checker with line contact profile (the profile most akin to what most members here will be using I think)

So in real world numbers in this case on my Dual 721 where I did these measurements, it ment that playing at 1,75gr VTF, with the Tears for fears song (so a loud DMM), the antiskate had to be set on the dial exactly at 1,75, with the Daft punk song, the antiskate had to be set on the AS dial at 1,5 and with the 49µm test track it had to be set at 2,25.
So that is way to high. Going higher (like 80µm) I probably can't (and won't) measure that as a skate o meter cant track that high, but that would need an AS force that has nothing to do with realistic skating forces while listening to music.

So imho test records/test tones are totally unsuitable for setting AS.
Either use the dial setting from the manufacturer (in my experience lots of manufacturers get it right), or use something like a wallyskater or use a digital scale on its side and set the AS force to 12-15% of the VTF. 12% if you listen to 70s soft rock or classical music, 15% if you listen to a lot of 80's pop music (or 60's mono 45 rpm's, they can contain pretty loud music too)

 

[morillon]

That is way too much for setting anti-skate. Even 50µm is way to much.
On a 9" tonearm, a 50µm (well....49µm in my case) 300Hz testtrack needs about 18% of the VTF as AS force whereas roughly 15% is needed on a very loud DMM record (in this case I took the chorus part of seeds of love from tears for fears) and roughly 13%-13,5% on a fairly loud part of a more modern record (I took the chorus of get lucky from Daft punk on the RAM album)
Measured with an Orsonic side force checker with line contact profile (the profile most akin to what most members here will be using I think)

So in real world numbers in this case on my Dual 721 where I did these measurements, it ment that playing at 1,75gr VTF, with the Tears for fears song (so a loud DMM), the antiskate had to be set on the dial exactly at 1,75, with the Daft punk song, the antiskate had to be set on the AS dial at 1,5 and with the 49µm test track it had to be set at 2,25.
So that is way to high. Going higher (like 80µm) I probably can't (and won't) measure that as a skate o meter cant track that high, but that would need an AS force that has nothing to do with realistic skating forces while listening to music.

So imho test records/test tones are totally unsuitable for setting AS.
Either use the dial setting from the manufacturer (in my experience lots of manufacturers get it right), or use something like a wallyskater or use a digital scale on its side and set the AS force to 12-15% of the VTF. 12% if you listen to 70s soft rock or classical music, 15% if you listen to a lot of 80's pop music (or 60's mono 45 rpm's, they can contain pretty loud music too)

(It's even a little more complicated because the type of size/dimensions of the diamond enters into the equation because it determines the nature of the friction and therefore the forces at play... the Japanese at Audiotechnica had even integrated it on the ace of some of their arms... see 1010 or 1100
(on "classical" with fairly large dynamic differences, the subject is quite insoluble) ;-) )

 

[Balle Clorin]

That is way too much for setting anti-skate. Even 50µm is way to much.
On a 9" tonearm, a 50µm (well....49µm in my case) 300Hz testtrack needs about 18% of the VTF as AS force whereas roughly 15% is needed on a very loud DMM record (in this case I took the chorus part of seeds of love from tears for fears) and roughly 13%-13,5% on a fairly loud part of a more modern record (I took the chorus of get lucky from Daft punk on the RAM album)
Measured with an Orsonic side force checker with line contact profile (the profile most akin to what most members here will be using I think)

So in real world numbers in this case on my Dual 721 where I did these measurements, it ment that playing at 1,75gr VTF, with the Tears for fears song (so a loud DMM), the antiskate had to be set on the dial exactly at 1,75, with the Daft punk song, the antiskate had to be set on the AS dial at 1,5 and with the 49µm test track it had to be set at 2,25.
So that is way to high. Going higher (like 80µm) I probably can't (and won't) measure that as a skate o meter cant track that high, but that would need an AS force that has nothing to do with realistic skating forces while listening to music.

So imho test records/test tones are totally unsuitable for setting AS.
Either use the dial setting from the manufacturer (in my experience lots of manufacturers get it right), or use something like a wallyskater or use a digital scale on its side and set the AS force to 12-15% of the VTF. 12% if you listen to 70s soft rock or classical music, 15% if you listen to a lot of 80's pop music (or 60's mono 45 rpm's, they can contain pretty loud music too)

My experience is very different, I can set the AS setting as recommended by arm manual VFT and track 80um perfectly.

I can do 70um without any antiskate at all .0 setting .
At 50-60 I can put antiskate to anything without any buzzing occurring.
Only when I attempt 90&100 um on the Ortofon record do I need to exceed the recommended .
I keep my AS as recommended by SME, it fits my AT OC9 MLii nicely and gives equal and minimal distortion in both channels

So the best is to follow arms recommendation, setting AS to more is then becoming a pissing contest just to get highest um, which is overdoing it. So there we agree
But AS test is still telling me if the cartridge is a good tracker or not.
Below 70um is sub par
Post in thread 'Fun with vinyl measurements'
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...un-with-vinyl-measurements.20278/post-1193242

 

[Thomas_A]

My experience is very different, I can set the AS setting as recommended by arm manual VFT and track 80um perfectly.

I can do 70um without any antiskate at all .0 setting .
At 50-60 I can put antiskate to anything without any buzzing occurring.
Only when I attempt 90&100 um on the Ortofon record do I need to exceed the recommended .
I keep my AS as recommended by SME, it nuts my AT OC9 MLii nicely and gives equal an minimal distortion in both channels

Post in thread 'Fun with vinyl measurements'
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...un-with-vinyl-measurements.20278/post-1193242

Just curious and I think you have the Denon technical record XG-7001. What antiskate value do you need to have the stylus stationary on the blank test track?

 

[Balle Clorin]

Can’t recall. I think is was difficult yo interpret as the SME V arm takes 2 second to @ land”, and therefore does not behave as other arms that I can adjust to slide in -out- or stationary at some position

Edit checked now. I need more AS than recommended to stay stationary with OC9MLii SME V in Denon XG-7001 blank.
The AS may be offset by the distance spindle to offset..
On Fisher 6330 &AT 95E I need 0.5 less AS than VTF to be stationary in the center if the blank bland, must adjust to 1 off VTF to move in either direction

 

[Thomas_A]

Can’t recall. I think is was difficult yo interpret as the SME V arm takes 2 second to @ land”, and therefore does not behave as other arms that I can adjust to slide in -out- or stationary at some position

Hm, but time to land should not affect? Perhaps I don't understand the problem, but as long as you can cue it manually with the lift at this specific area, you should see if the arms moves in either direction. It is the blank area I am referring to.

 

[Balle Clorin]

I found another post where I did it successfully on a blank disk , I needed 0.5 more AS than VTF setting on my SME V and OC9

 

[GuidoK]

Thorens and dual also have a dual AS scale on their dials.

My experience is very different, I can set the AS setting as recommended by arm manual VFT and track 80um perfectly.

I can do 70um without any antiskate at all .0 setting .
At 50-60 I can put antiskate to anything without any buzzing occurring.
Only when I attempt 90&100 um on the Ortofon record do I need to exceed the recommended .
I keep my AS as recommended by SME, it fits my AT OC9 MLii nicely and gives equal and minimal distortion in both channels

So the best is to follow arms recommendation, setting AS to more is then becoming a pissing contest just to get highest um, which is overdoing it. So there we agree
But AS test is still telling me if the cartridge is a good tracker or not.
Below 70um is sub par
Post in thread 'Fun with vinyl measurements'
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...un-with-vinyl-measurements.20278/post-1193242

But that is setting AS to a standard that it becomes audibe or measurable in the audio signal of a tracking signal on a test record.
I'm setting AS as a standard that the force is the most equal to the skating force that occurs when listening to music. This is to prevent excessive (uneven) wear to the stylus and get the optimal playing hours. So setting up the AS force to an ammount that is most equal to the skating force that occurs when playing music.
Using a skate-o-meter device gives you much more accuracy in that sense. A tracking test does not.

 

[GuidoK]

(It's even a little more complicated because the type of size/dimensions of the diamond enters into the equation because it determines the nature of the friction and therefore the forces at play... the Japanese at Audiotechnica had even integrated it on the ace of some of their arms... see 1010 or 1100
(on "classical" with fairly large dynamic differences, the subject is quite insoluble) ;-) )

Yes Dual and Thorens also have stylus shape dependant scales on some of their AS dials.
I also have orsonic side force checkers with different stylus shape.
But the stylus shape gives far less of a difference than the modulated signal of music gives, so regulating AS to the shape of the stylus is a bit of a gimmick.
That the ideal AS value is 'insoluble' (as that one ideal AS setting doesn't exist) doesn't mean you can get an AS setting that is always wrong, like what you'd get when using a tracking test using modulated signals that are way too loud and will never occur in normal music.
Even 50µm (at 300Hz) is a value that will never occur in normal music (not considering some extremes somehow always known by audiophiles (like 1812 telarc) but never listened ), not even as a peak, let alone as a mean signal imho. (50µm at 300hz is 9,5m/s whereas 5cm/s is generally the peak cutting velocity set as a standard for 0dB)

 

[Balle Clorin]

Tried the blank vinyl disk on 4 turntables XG-7001 Denon record . On two the recommended setting on TT arm gave stationary position. - at centre of blank field-One needed 0.5 unit less and another 0.5 units more. To make arm move from stationary state AS had to be changed by 0.5 units. Nudging the pickup position by a finger may be needed do let the arm find it’s natural movement- stationary - inward-outward. AS setting also can affect at what position arm becomes stationary

Ortofon um testing next, but as stated before I do not set AS to achieve max um, setting AS at recommend value makes my cartridges track 70 um or more. At lower um vallues no or very low AS is needed. so a 50 um test tells me nothing as any AS value will work ( on my main TT).

My Denon electronic controlled arm the arm position is stationary on blank disk on any VTF…- AS and VTF is one dial

 

[Thomas_A]

Tried the blank vinyl disk on 4 turntables XG-7001 Denon record . On two the recommended setting on TT arm gave stationary position. - at centre of blank field-One needed 0.5 unit less and another 0.5 units more. To make arm move from stationary state AS had to be changed by 0.5 units. Nudging the pickup position by a finger may be needed do let the arm find it’s natural movement- stationary - inward-outward. AS setting also can affect at what position arm becomes stationary

Ortofon um testing next, but as stated before I do not set AS to achieve max um, setting AS at recommend value makes my cartridges track 70 um or more. At lower um vallues no or very low AS is needed. so a 50 um test tells me nothing as any AS value will work ( on my main TT).

My Denon electronic controlled arm the arm position is stationary on blank disk on any VTF…- AS and VTF is one dial

Thanks,

It was long ago I had a scale of the AS function (my old Akito tone arm) so I cannot check any correlation of scale setting vs various methods. The blank space method is the one I use letting the arm move slowly inwards. The second method I check with is sibilants. I find the 50-100 um quite useless since I find no divergence 50-90 um. It is only at 100 I see a steeper THD increase in one channel which is fixed by increased AS. But as already mentioned this is not an expected level on records.

 

[JP]

I've never spent much time on AS. Maybe, in a large part, due to playing with rather high-compliance carts early on were cantilever deflection as prevalent, so I used that to gauge the settings, and extrapolated for carts that didn't have easy tells. At any rate, inspection has always showed even wear, so there was never a need to go further.

Same for trackability. Aside from a few compromised suspensions, I've never had an issue with it.

 

[Balle Clorin]

See post 182

 

[GuidoK]

I've never spent much time on AS. Maybe, in a large part, due to playing with rather high-compliance carts early on were cantilever deflection as prevalent, so I used that to gauge the settings, and extrapolated for carts that didn't have easy tells. At any rate, inspection has always showed even wear, so there was never a need to go further.

Same for trackability. Aside from a few compromised suspensions, I've never had an issue with it.

Another method is to get a mono record and use a null analasys.
I've done that in the past and my findings were that if you're 0.25 off (+ and -) on the AS dial (for me: I've tested this on my dual 721) there was still no significant difference to be heard.
But when the setting is off 0,5 on the dial, there was a significant rise in null sound audibe. So I guess from that point on it could technically become audible in the music.
(I don't know if I still have those audio files though)
On my dual 721 AS scale, 0,25 is roughly 40mg.
This is how I graphed that:

I guess AS it's a bit like wow/flutter; from an audible perspective there's no need to get it extremely low/precise, only from a certain point it can become audible.
For AS, the main thing is that it should be aligned at levels that are representative to music levels. Otherwise there is no relation. Modulation and VTF are it's main parameters.

 

[narud]

Shure VN5MR broken cantilever re-attachment

In my collecting of vn5mr's over the years, ive received quite a few broken due to improper packing. This has left me with a few usable broken cantilevers. years ago i sent joseph long one of them to be repaired. he used a small piece of aluminum tube to reattach and bridge the cantilever back together. that particular stylus was a clean break with no missing beryllium. this happened way before i was using the script so my only means of comparison was comparing recordings to a stock stylus. iirc, the repaired stylus was a couple dbs brighter than normal. i ended up selling it since it sounded closer to an audio technica.

after the black diamond cantilever transfer was a success on the other shure i worked on, i figured id try to frankenstein together a stylus with a piece of broken cantilever that still had a good micro ridge and a grip i had laying around with a couple of millimeters of cantilever exposed after a break. in this case, there was a good amount of beryllium length missing. i ended up using 3.5 millimeters of aluminum cantilever from a generic m91 stylus. that was the only thing i had that would slip fit over the beryllium.

im sure the results would have come out better if this was done professionally, but it does work. it needs 1.5 grams to perform as expected on the hifinews 300hz tracks. i dont know if thats because of the stylus assembly, an sra change in my graft or something else. there is now a pretty large high frequency lift and im having a crosstalk issue beyond 14k. im imagining the added weight of the aluminum is causing the lift but im not sure whats causing the super high frequencies leaking into the other channel. maybe the epoxy job? it was pretty tough getting coverage on the slip fit onto the stub that was remaining on the stylus assembly.

either way, it was a fun experiment to try.

 

[Thomas_A]

Shure VN5MR broken cantilever re-attachment

In my collecting of vn5mr's over the years, ive received quite a few broken due to improper packing. This has left me with a few usable broken cantilevers. years ago i sent joseph long one of them to be repaired. he used a small piece of aluminum tube to reattach and bridge the cantilever back together. that particular stylus was a clean break with no missing beryllium. this happened way before i was using the script so my only means of comparison was comparing recordings to a stock stylus. iirc, the repaired stylus was a couple dbs brighter than normal. i ended up selling it since it sounded closer to an audio technica.

after the black diamond cantilever transfer was a success on the other shure i worked on, i figured id try to frankenstein together a stylus with a piece of broken cantilever that still had a good micro ridge and a grip i had laying around with a couple of millimeters of cantilever exposed after a break. in this case, there was a good amount of beryllium length missing. i ended up using 3.5 millimeters of aluminum cantilever from a generic m91 stylus. that was the only thing i had that would slip fit over the beryllium.

im sure the results would have come out better if this was done professionally, but it does work. it needs 1.5 grams to perform as expected on the hifinews 300hz tracks. i dont know if thats because of the stylus assembly, an sra change in my graft or something else. there is now a pretty large high frequency lift and im having a crosstalk issue beyond 14k. im imagining the added weight of the aluminum is causing the lift but im not sure whats causing the super high frequencies leaking into the other channel. maybe the epoxy job? it was pretty tough getting coverage on the slip fit onto the stub that was remaining on the stylus assembly.

either way, it was a fun experiment to try.

View attachment 483314
View attachment 483315View attachment 483316

Fun experiment. You seem to have created a chaotic resonance of the stylus - almost same signal in both channels >10 kHz.

 

[narud]

Fun experiment. You seem to have created a chaotic resonance of the stylus - almost same signal in both channels >10 kHz.

ya im super curious what happened. that didnt occur the other cantilever graft i did. this one does have two joints instead of just one though.