Fullrange speaker project based on Morel TSCM 634

[abdo123]

Why not go all in on Sorbothane? Your cabinets look fairly small, it shouldn't be super expensive.

https://www.edmundoptics.eu/p/6quot...ET66DBqgugoCgev23E0o9ucubvLmhYdEaAvrFEALw_wcB

 

[ppataki]

Why not go all in on Sorbothane? Your cabinets look fairly small, it shouldn't be super expensive.

https://www.edmundoptics.eu/p/6quot...ET66DBqgugoCgev23E0o9ucubvLmhYdEaAvrFEALw_wcB

Yes, that could work
But I am thinking about my line array project....for that this would be super expensive I guess (plus a lot would be lost when cutting out the material for the 24 speakers per cabinet....)

 

[abdo123]

Yes, that could work
But I am thinking about my line array project....for that this would be super expensive I guess (plus a lot would be lost when cutting out the material for the 24 speakers per cabinet....)

don't damp the baffle, i don't think it's worth it in this case. the sound will have to first hit the other 5 surfaces first before it hits the baffle again

 

[ppataki]

don't damp the baffle, i don't think it's worth it in this case. the sound will have to first hit the other 5 surfaces first before it hits the baffle again

You mean not to damp the front wall but only the back and side walls + the top and bottom?

 

[abdo123]

You mean not to damp the front wall but only the back and side walls + the top and bottom?

yes. if you think too much sorbothane would be wasted it's better to use it damping the other surfaces.

 

[ernestcarl]

The picture below should show you how we can determine how quickly direct sound decays from an impulse response. In your figure it's difficult to tell where direct sound settles down and where room reflections kick in, this could be because the cabinet is resonating so direct sound never really decays before room reflections arrive.

His impulse graph didn't look so bad to me. But I presume the measurement was taken at the main listening position where some noise is not altogether unexpected. I'm thinking a (quasi)anechoic IR is probably what you are looking for?

Mine at an odd angle and distance looks way worse actually:

Accompanying step response summed with the sub looks somewhat a little weird as well:

"double-duty"

*no additional crossovers applied to sub and speakers here i.e. all monitors are playing at their full-range bandwidth


FDW 7 cycles applied above and below

*energy reducing EQ applied between 5.7 - 10kHz

I think carefully used FIR corrections at the xo between speakers in any multichannel sound system helps avoid unnecessary SPL reduction and/or cancellation effects during simultaneous playback -- keeping all the (direct sound) phases in-line as much as possible. Personally, I really don't think single driver monitors are at all necessary to get a great (tightly coherent) sounding system.

 

[abdo123]

His impulse graph didn't look so bad to me. But I presume the measurement was taken at the main listening position where some noise is not altogether unexpected. I'm thinking a (quasi)anechoic IR is probably what you are looking for?

Mine at an odd angle and distance looks way worse actually:

View attachment 151613

Accompanying step response summed with the sub looks somewhat a little weird as well:

"double-duty"
View attachment 151614
*no additional crossovers applied to sub and speakers here i.e. all monitors are playing at their full-range bandwidth


FDW 7 cycles applied above and below

View attachment 151615
*energy reducing EQ applied between 5.7 - 10kHz

I think carefully used FIR corrections at the xo between speakers in any multichannel sound system helps avoid unnecessary SPL reduction and/or cancellation effects during simultaneous playback -- keeping all the (direct sound) phases in-line as much as possible. Personally, I really don't think single driver monitors are at all necessary to get a great (tightly coherent) sounding system.

Really? It seems very clear that in your IR the first reflection arrives at ~3.5 ms, this is not something I could tell with OPs IR with ease.

Either way i don't think it's fair to compare a DIY project to a commercial speaker, the manufacturer could have tuned the crossover to work with the resonances instead of going the expensive route to damp the cabinet by using more expensive materials.

The number of commercial speakers that i heard in my life that didn't buzz or fuzz at certain loudness or a certain frequencies I can honestly count on my fingers.

Edit: your decay times are also considerably lower than OP.

 

[ernestcarl]

Really? It seems very clear that in your IR the first reflection arrives at ~3.5 ms, this is not something I could tell with OPs IR with ease.

Either way i don't think it's fair to compare a DIY project to a commercial speaker, the manufacturer could have tuned the crossover to work with the resonances instead of going the expensive route to damp the cabinet by using more expensive materials.

The number of commercial speakers that i heard in my life that didn't buzz or fuzz at certain loudness or a certain frequencies I can honestly count on my fingers.

Edit: your decay times are also considerably higher than OP.

Indeed, it is there.

Maybe one could look at the zoomed-in ETC to sift for these first reflections. I probably would just ask the OP for an mdat file and the conditions that they were taken in order to get a closer look if truly interested.

Decay times? Not really sure why the comparison there matters much considering the conditions between the measurements likely differ significantly.

 

[ernestcarl]

Either way i don't think it's fair to compare a DIY project to a commercial speaker, the manufacturer could have tuned the crossover to work with the resonances instead of going the expensive route to damp the cabinet by using more expensive materials.

BTW, I wasn't particularly looking for resonances or signs of lack of damping in his DIY speakers -- though the single driver and their apparent phase coherency "x" factor is what made me a bit curious.

 

[ppataki]

Happy to share the mdat file, please see it attached

I think that the reason why the first reflection points are not really visible on my IR is due to the fact that fullrange speakers are beaming like hell hence reflections become less pronounced while the sweet spot becomes extremely small. You can see the same phenomenon on my other fullrange system here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rvana-12-dayton-reference-fast-project.26350/

(small sweet spot counts as a drawback to many people when it comes to using fullrange speakers - but not to me, I am totally fine with the small sweet spot)

 

[tuga]

Here is the uncorrected FR vs. corrected FR
View attachment 151362

I have had several DIY fullrange systems and it is pretty clear that these must be heavily corrected, otherwise they are practically unlistenable
(especially my 12" system in my living room)
But once properly corrected, the results are unbeatable (at least to my taste, totally subjectively)

Could you plot a new curve with a narrower vertical scale (Y) that's 50dB-wide?
Anything looks flat on a 100dB-wide scale.

 

[ernestcarl]

Happy to share the mdat file, please see it attached

I think that the reason why the first reflection points are not really visible on my IR is due to the fact that fullrange speakers are beaming like hell hence reflections become less pronounced while the sweet spot becomes extremely small. You can see the same phenomenon on my other fullrange system here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rvana-12-dayton-reference-fast-project.26350/

(small sweet spot counts as a drawback to many people when it comes to using fullrange speakers - but not to me, I am totally fine with the small sweet spot)

Very clean... despite the lack of any room treatment.

On axis there's also a distinct lack of early reflections, esp. 3kHz up. Hmmn... yeah, and the very tight beamwidth isn't going to work for off-axis listening at all so one is going to be very restricted in terms of listening position.

 

[ppataki]

Very clean... despite the lack of any room treatment.

On axis there's also a distinct lack of early reflections, esp. 3kHz up. Hmmn... yeah, and the very tight beamwidth isn't going to work for off-axis listening at all so one is going to be very restricted in terms of listening position.

I have tried at least half a dozen of fullrange drivers and they are pretty much the same from this perspective: very clean IR and SR, very clean phase curve (when properly corrected with Dirac or equivalent!) but extremely narrow sweet spot - I guess then it is up to one's taste to go for it or not
For me, definitely yes

 

[ernestcarl]

I have tried at least half a dozen of fullrange drivers and they are pretty much the same from this perspective: very clean IR and SR, very clean phase curve (when properly corrected with Dirac or equivalent!) but extremely narrow sweet spot - I guess then it is up to one's taste to go for it or not
For me, definitely yes

Found the curves provided by the company:

For my multi-purpose use-case scenario -- frequent off-axis listening -- it's just not going to work.

I was curious to see how the FR of my S8 coax compared to the LS50M so I did an overlay with the Klippel data Amir provided in his review:

EDIT: FDW 7 cycles

HF energy already reduced as mentioned earlier

Surprising that the (manual by ear) EQ cut I made corresponds with the off-axis of the far more neutral LS50 meta. The advantage of the narrower beamwidth of this (somewhat compromised) small horn waveguide is in significantly reducing strong early sidewall reflections -- extreme situation being where the speaker baffle edge is at an extreme 1-inch distance away from the immediate sidewall!

Attached more images to illustrate my rather unusual "multi-purpose" setup.



Basically, speakers in the rear of the couch (LSR305s and about 15 degrees off at the desk position) also double-duty as rear surrounds for my sit-stand desk setup. Subwoofer is hidden by a velvety/black bear fur blanket behind the desk. Oh yeah, and I can also easily point the Neumann monitors to play directly in front of the couch with the sub (DSP quickly changed with a simple saved preset) -- in case one wants to A/B between off-axis S8s and KH120s just for fun.

Haven't seen anyone else that does something similar yet... for now.

 

[JWAmerica]

Is MLV no longer viable? We're looking at sorbothane and silicone now? I've had good results with multilayer damping materials like this, but obviously a well braced cabinet with thick walls helps a lot more with low frequencies.

https://www.parts-express.com/Sonic-Barrier-1-1-4-3-Layer-Damping-Material-w-PSA-18-x-24-260-535

 

[ppataki]

To me personally sorbothane is way too expensive but when searching for viscoelastic materials I came across Green Glue, which is kind of a liquid sorbothane as far as I understood

Based on these two videos I am totally sold on Green Glue:

I have already ordered them for my line array project
The plan is to use 2x12mm plywood and apply Green Glue between the two layers

 

[jamescarter1982]

Here is the uncorrected FR vs. corrected FR
View attachment 151362

I have had several DIY fullrange systems and it is pretty clear that these must be heavily corrected, otherwise they are practically unlistenable
(especially my 12" system in my living room)
But once properly corrected, the results are unbeatable (at least to my taste, totally subjectively)

can you tell us more about your 12inch system is it the fane 12300tc ? I'm guessing ?

 

[ppataki]

can you tell us more about your 12inch system is it the fane 12300tc ? I'm guessing ?

Here you are: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...rvana-12-dayton-reference-fast-project.26350/

 

[jamescarter1982]

thankyou !