Full Range Speaker to 20Hz?

[Stece C]

Why is it that there doesn’t seem to be any speakers (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz (3db down at 20Hz anechoic)

I understand that a speaker designed to go flat to 20Hz would have a low sensitivity (maybe 84 db). And many people prefer to utilize a sub woofer for low frequency extension.

With all of that said, why is it that there is no products (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz?

The only 2 possible answers that came to mind is:
1. There isn’t much demand for this type of product
2. It is extremely difficult to engineer

Any thoughts why it is difficult to find such a product? I am assuming that it would be attractive to at least some people.

PS: I am referring to a consumer type passive speaker (speakers with no internal amp, no DSP etc). I also realize that “in room response” of many speakers will measure down to 20Hz but I am looking for anechoic response to 20Hz.

 

[Helicopter]

It is 1, demand. You would need to add a passive subwoofer to the cabinet, and it might work better with its own chamber. Focal Utopias are like that, but the sub is powered. You would need a lot of power. It is cheaper to do line level crossovers at low frequencies because the inductors for speaker level get really big, so that is another disadvantage. You would probably need a giant cabinet to hold everything amd it would be super heavy too. And most people don't care enough about 20 to 30Hz to make it worth the expense, space, materials, electronics to run it. Very little music is so low. Also, we don't hear well in this range even though we can hear.

 

[Stece C]

It is 1, demand. You would need to add a passive subwoofer to the cabinet, and it might work better with its own chamber. Focal Utopias are like that, but the sub is powered. You would need a lot of power. It is cheaper to do line level crossovers at low frequencies because the inductors for speaker level get really big, so that is another disadvantage. You would probably need a giant cabinet to hold everything amd it would be super heavy too. And most people don't care enough about 20 to 30Hz to make it worth the expense, space, materials, electronics to run it. Very little music is so low. Also, we don't hear well in this range even though we can hear.

Yes you are correct. I think the 20Hz information we feel it more than we hear it. It is still fun for me to experiance that true full range sound.

 

[Webninja]

GoldenEar Triton One and Two claim a frequency response of 13Hz/16Hz - 35KHz. Both have built in powered subs though.

 

[MZKM]

GoldenEar Triton One and Two claim a frequency response of 13Hz/16Hz - 35KHz. Both have built in powered subs though.

Do note they don’t state +/-dB.

 

[richard12511]

Why is it that there doesn’t seem to be any speakers (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz (3db down at 20Hz anechoic)

I understand that a speaker designed to go flat to 20Hz would have a low sensitivity (maybe 84 db). And many people prefer to utilize a sub woofer for low frequency extension.

With all of that said, why is it that there is no products (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz?

The only 2 possible answers that came to mind is:
1. There isn’t much demand for this type of product
2. It is extremely difficult to engineer

Any thoughts why it is difficult to find such a product? I am assuming that it would be attractive to at least some people.

PS: I am referring to a consumer type passive speaker (speakers with no internal amp, no DSP etc). I also realize that “in room response” of many speakers will measure down to 20Hz but I am looking for anechoic response to 20Hz.

I think it's just really really hard to design a speaker with true 20Hz anechoic extension without making the speaker the size of a refrigerator. Even most cost no object speakers don't make it down quite that low. Revel Salon2 is -6dB at 23Hz I believe?

One that does offer truly full range performance is the Focal Grand Utopia. It has a -3dB point of 18Hz, and is also exceptionally well engineered everywhere else, offering exceptional wide and controlled dispersion. Only downside is the 584lb weight and $120,000 price tag .

The JTR 215RT is another well designed and neutral speaker that offers truly full range performance. Extension is exactly the same as the Focal Grand Utopia(-3dB @18Hz), but the price is much more reasonable, at $7,200/pair. Dispersion pattern is considerably different than the Focal, though. It's much more narrow, at 60x60. If you're looking to purchase, I would figure out what kind of dispersion widths you prefer. Some like narrow, some like wide, others like in between. I tend to lean narrow to mid, but I think the majority of folks prefer wide.
With the JTR or Focal you can reasonably expect ~10Hz in room extension. Here is an in room measurement taken at 1m(400-500Hz dip is due to a room reflection).

For an even more reasonably priced option, look at the Tekton Double Impact. It claims 20Hz anechoic extension(though some are dubious of this), and at just $3,500, it's one of the cheapest 20Hz extension, 4 way speakers I know of. The Impact monitor was measured by stereophile, and actually looked really good.

I'm not aware of any measurements of the Double Impact, but I'm assuming it measures similarly to the impact monitor, just with more extension.

Golden Ear, with their powered woofer sections offer several different options.

 

[detlev24]

[...] With all of that said, why is it that there is no products (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz? [...]

I think the main issue is size - most people want slim/small loudspeakers - and the fact, that it is rather hard to realize with passive designs (which again, most people prefer).

DSP powered loudspeakers like 'JBL M2' are as close as it gets, with in this anechoic example [clearly audible] ~80 dB SPL at 20 Hz [specifications: 92 dB sensitivity // 20 Hz at ±3 dB]. Yet, what counts in the end is always in-room frequency response.

 

[Stece C]

I think it's just really really hard to design a speaker with true 20Hz anechoic extension without making the speaker the size of a refrigerator. Even most cost no object speakers don't make it down quite that low. Revel Salon2 is -6dB at 23Hz I believe?

One that does offer truly full range performance is the Focal Grand Utopia. It has a -3dB point of 18Hz, and is also exceptionally well engineered everywhere else, offering exceptional wide and controlled dispersion. Only downside is the 584lb weight and $120,000 price tag .

The JTR 215RT is another well designed and neutral speaker that offers truly full range performance. Extension is exactly the same as the Focal Grand Utopia(-3dB @18Hz), but the price is much more reasonable, at $7,200/pair. Dispersion pattern is considerably different than the Focal, though. It's much more narrow, at 60x60. If you're looking to purchase, I would figure out what kind of dispersion widths you prefer. Some like narrow, some like wide, others like in between. I tend to lean narrow to mid, but I think the majority of folks prefer wide.
With the JTR or Focal you can reasonably expect ~10Hz in room extension. Here is an in room measurement taken at 1m(400-500Hz dip is due to a room reflection).

View attachment 98828


For an even more reasonably priced option, look at the Tekton Double Impact. It claims 20Hz anechoic extension(though some are dubious of this), and at just $3,500, it's one of the cheapest 20Hz extension, 4 way speakers I know of. The Impact monitor was measured by stereophile, and actually looked really good.

View attachment 98833

I'm not aware of any measurements of the Double Impact, but I'm assuming it measures similarly to the impact monitor, just with more extension.

Golden Ear, with their powered woofer sections offer several different options.

Thanks for the good suggestions concerning full range towers. In the Focal documentation it looked like it has an internal powered sub. I am interested about passive designs. The Tekton didn't mention what the 3db down point was and they didn't seem to publish an anechoic response curve. JTR was same story as Tekton. However you are definitely correct about the Salon 2. I requested a curve from them. I think it is 3db down at 23Hz (close enough). However the docs don't mention anything about max SPL or recommended amp power Lol. I am guessing it is 105db max (not terrible). I give credit to the Harman engineers who designed the Salon system. Good Job !!!

 

[Webninja]

@Stece C - take a look here for some good speaker data, including the Salon2.

https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com/2019/03/spinorama-data-revel-ultima.html

 

[Stece C]

I think the main issue is size - most people want slim/small loudspeakers - and the fact, that it is rather hard to realize with passive designs (which again, most people prefer).

DSP powered loudspeakers like 'JBL M2' are as close as it gets, with in this anechoic example [clearly audible] ~80 dB SPL at 20 Hz [specifications: 92 dB sensitivity // 20 Hz at ±3 dB]. Yet, what counts in the end is always in-room frequency response.

Yes I agree. The JBL M2 is nice. I think the Salon2 speaker is not too big. It is -3db at 23Hz. The disadvantage is that its max output is 105db (guess). The Salon 2 seems well engineered.

 

[Vini darko]

Buchadt A700 is a sensible sized tower claimimg some hefty extension. However physics can't be avoided. If you want passives flat to 20hz and efficient it's going to require multiple large drivers per speaker. They will be huge.

 

[Stece C]

@Stece C - take a look here for some good speaker data, including the Salon2.

https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com/2019/03/spinorama-data-revel-ultima.html

WOW! Nice! Do you think those are GP (ground plane) measurements at 2m?

 

[richard12511]

Thanks for the good suggestions concerning full range towers. In the Focal documentation it looked like it has an internal powered sub. I am interested about passive designs. The Tekton didn't mention what the 3db down point was and they didn't seem to publish an anechoic response curve. JTR was same story as Tekton. However you are definitely correct about the Salon 2. I requested a curve from them. I think it is 3db down at 23Hz (close enough). However the docs don't mention anything about max SPL or recommended amp power Lol. I am guessing it is 105db max (not terrible). I give credit to the Harman engineers who designed the Salon system. Good Job !!!

JTR does actually list 18Hz as the -3dB point. It's also been verified by 3rd party(databass) complete with distortion and CEA-2010 max output testing. Confirmed 98.5dB at 12.5Hz 1m and 111dB at 16Hz with sub 10% distortion, so definitely full range. Tekton indeed doesn't list the the -3dB point, so it's not clear what that 20Hz figure means on their site. You're correct about the Salon2, though; 23Hz is the -3dB point(my memory was off).

 

[Stece C]

GoldenEar Triton One and Two claim a frequency response of 13Hz/16Hz - 35KHz. Both have built in powered subs though.

Yes I am looking for specs on passive designs. Many speaker companies have trouble delivering anechoic curves (in my experience)

 

[daftcombo]

See here:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...heapest-full-range-20hz-20khz-speakers.17392/

 

[Bear123]

Why is it that there doesn’t seem to be any speakers (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz (3db down at 20Hz anechoic)

I understand that a speaker designed to go flat to 20Hz would have a low sensitivity (maybe 84 db). And many people prefer to utilize a sub woofer for low frequency extension.

With all of that said, why is it that there is no products (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz?

The only 2 possible answers that came to mind is:
1. There isn’t much demand for this type of product
2. It is extremely difficult to engineer

Any thoughts why it is difficult to find such a product? I am assuming that it would be attractive to at least some people.

PS: I am referring to a consumer type passive speaker (speakers with no internal amp, no DSP etc). I also realize that “in room response” of many speakers will measure down to 20Hz but I am looking for anechoic response to 20Hz.

It seems to me that flat to 20 Hz anechoic would perform poorly in almost any room. With a good system(i.e. room eq), this won't be an issue. But a huge percentage of folks still have outdated 2.0 channel systems with no bass management or eq. The result would be a horribly bloated low frequency response.

My Revel F36 towers have MFR spec extension of 51/45/33 Hz at -3/-6/-10 dB. Here is how they perform in a 2525^ft room with two 5' opening to adjoining rooms:

 

[tuga]

Why is it that there doesn’t seem to be any speakers (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz (3db down at 20Hz anechoic)

I understand that a speaker designed to go flat to 20Hz would have a low sensitivity (maybe 84 db). And many people prefer to utilize a sub woofer for low frequency extension.

With all of that said, why is it that there is no products (full range speakers) that are designed to go flat to 20Hz?

The only 2 possible answers that came to mind is:
1. There isn’t much demand for this type of product
2. It is extremely difficult to engineer

Any thoughts why it is difficult to find such a product? I am assuming that it would be attractive to at least some people.

PS: I am referring to a consumer type passive speaker (speakers with no internal amp, no DSP etc). I also realize that “in room response” of many speakers will measure down to 20Hz but I am looking for anechoic response to 20Hz.

You really nead 4-ways to get down to those depths, in a large box.

 

[richard12511]

Yes I am looking for specs on passive designs. Many speaker companies have trouble delivering anechoic curves (in my experience)

It's very rare, which is unfortunate. KEF, Revel, Buchardt, and JBL are the only ones I know of that do, though not for every model. I'll likely never buy another speaker for which I can't find CEA-2034(or something comparable), and I'm much more likely to purchase from those who provide it themselves. High chance that companies who don't publish it themselves do so because they know it would paint them in a poor light.

 

[Stece C]

GoldenEar Triton One and Two claim a frequency response of 13Hz/16Hz - 35KHz. Both have built in powered subs though.

I noticed you are in LA. Do you have any business relation with Harman group?

 

[detlev24]

Yes I am looking for specs on passive designs. [...]

As @richard12511 suggested, have a look at the JTR Noesis 215RT. [ Edit: prices will increase significantly on January 1st! ]