Frustrated and venting, ideas will be helpful

[raindance]

I'm sure it depends. A tweeter might have a series resistor making it require more power (but who cares?). A woofer crossover would often have minimal impedance until it starts rolling off. In general I'm not sure crossovers are much to blame for low speaker sensitivity.

Crossovers are often used to linearize driver responses, and that is where sensitivity is "discarded". If you look at the new LSA bookshelf speakers that are supposed to have such great bass for their size, they are about 83dB per watt at 1 meter which is REALLY insensitive, meaning you would need a lot of power to get lifelike volume levels from them at any reasonable seating distance. Not that I would want or expect lifelike levels from little bookshelves.

My point is that the bass extension comes at a price.

 

[Martin]

Highly modified Klipsch RF7ii with Scanspeak 12mu mids and Pioneer beryllium ribbon tweeters.

View attachment 137325

Isn’t that a wimpy 10 watt 300b monoblock sitting behind your frankenspeaker? I use 1,200 watt monoblock amplifiers on my passive speakers and I have no problem with compression at high volumes.

Martin

 

[DVDdoug]

I may be misusing the word compression. My way of understanding compression is that when you increase the voltage input at some point the frequency response starts to change in a bad way.

Compression is a reduction in the dynamics. For example, you increase the electrical signal by +3dB and the acoustic sound level only goes-up by +1dB, or not at all. Clipping is a very-bad kind of compression where the peaks are squared-off.

Speakers are generally linear and I don't know how hard you have to drive them before they "compress". Compression from a speaker would also be measured as distortion and that's probably where it would show-up.

Frequency response shouldn't change with level, unless you hit the limits of your woofer's excursion, etc., and that would result in compression/distortion/clipping of the bass.

That's more likely to happen with an active speaker with built-in EQ (or if you are applying EQ with an active or passive speaker) and of course with bass boost you are also more likely to clip the amplifier.

Some active speakers have limiting (maybe as part of the protection?) and that's a kind compression.

But I have noticed that when music is played loud without distortion, it sounds great snd is not tiring at all.

Of course that's a personal preference thing and it depends on what you mean by "loud" and probably the musical dynamics. An orchestra doesn't play at a constant 120dB but the front-row of a rock or rap concert might be that loud constantly. To me, constantly-loud highly-compressed music is annoying and boring and if I listen too long my ears ring and I get a temporary threshold shift (temporary partial hearing loss). If I'm listening to "good music" with good dynamics, yes I like to turn it up (to a point). I've been to concerts that were too loud and others that were "loud and clear".

 

[NTK]

Quote from an Andrew Jones interview by Steve Guttenberg
https://www.cnet.com/news/the-art-of-speaker-design-explained-by-a-master/

For a speaker with a passive crossover, there is the additional complication that changes in the voice coil resistance also mess with the filter characteristics of the crossover, thereby further altering the frequency response.

 

[Wes]

why not try a set of Dutch & Dutch 8c speakers?

 

[gags11]

Maybe we should establish what your expectations are. How big is the room? How far away do you sit? What genre do you mostly listen to? What are the speakers/amp you are actually using and what was it you were somewhat happy with in the past? What is the state of your hearing - has it been tested recently? I have never found the need to overdrive speakers or crossovers or push my amps to clipping, but maybe that is because I understand the limitations of trying to create live events in a domestic room (plus I just can't tolerate peaks louder than about 93dB these days). I used to mix live sound in my younger days, so I know what stuff should sound like before it is mangled by the recording and playback chain .

I currently have KEF R11s together with a Rythmik 12” sub. These are driven by a McIntosh mc462 fed by a DAC, which in turn is connected to Roon Rock.
Room is 22x25x10 ft, half open on one side.


Prior to this set up with active speakers, when I would listen to loud music say rock or jazz, everything played effortlessly, bass slams, transients, etc. When going loud with the passive set up, things start falling apart about 10-15db lower. I also feel it was not tiring at all listening to music loud with the active setup. Not the case with my current one.

 

[DWPress]

Just go back to an active set up! You already know all the benefits and quite a few posts in this thread reinforce those facts.

Yes, sometimes it's tempting to simplify but I, for one, will never go back.

 

[raindance]

What were the active speakers you had? Did I miss this info?

 

[Galliardist]

This looks from your description like a gain issue (other mismatches might be the cause, but you are only describing a problem reaching high output and not other distortions).
You didn't name the DAC, so we can't do the sums to be certain. However, I'd take the easiest route out of this problem and buy a modern powerful integrated at a fraction of the price of the McIntosh power amp, assuming you want to stick with a mainstream product.

People who buy McIntosh, though, usually like the look and want to keep it when they have it. In that case, look for a DAC/pre or preamp with gain and output impedence to match the specs of the matching preame that they want you to use.

Without sufficient gain, you won't be using the full power of the MC462, and with those KEFs you need a lot of that power.

 

[gags11]

Without sufficient gain, you won't be using the full power of the MC462, and with those KEFs you need a lot of that power.

Great point, but I do not think it’s the case. I am using Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, which at 0db gain produces more than 6volts output. McIntosh’s sensitivity is 4.2 volts. There is so much output from the DAC that I curtail dBFS input a bit in Roon.

 

[tmtomh]

I don't want to derail the thread, so please feel free to ignore this, but... my understanding is that sustained peak listening levels above about 85dB can cause lasting hearing damage, yes? While distortion in transducers increases, sometimes massively, with volume, and while lower distortion at high listening levels is of course much more pleasant and high-fidelity, I'm not aware of any data or evidence suggesting that lower distortion is less harmful to one's hearing if the overall volume level remains just as high.

I have often wondered about this, because my impression is that a lot of - maybe even most? - audiophiles and home-audio enthusiasts seem to listen to music at louder levels than I do. I listen with speakers in a decent-sized but not huge room, about 16x20 with about 8.5 foot tall ceilings, with my ears about 8 feet from the speakers. Based on spl meter readings I generally listen at peak levels of about 75-85dB, usually in the lower half of that range. (I also suspect that this habit and preference has reduced felt need to upgrade my speakers anytime soon, as I get the sense from Amir's distortion graphs that the differences between good vs great speakers are probably more noticeable when you start pushing them above about 85dB or so.)

I'm just wondering how folks are regularly listening at 95-105 dB, for extended periods (yes?), and not experiencing any discomfort or impacts on their hearing?

 

[gags11]

What were the active speakers you had? Did I miss this info?

there is a picture earlier in the thread, they were modified Klipsch RF7ii. Only thing left from Klipsch were the 10” woofers and the cabinets.

 

[gags11]

I don't want to derail the thread, so please feel free to ignore this, but... my understanding is that sustained peak listening levels above about 85dB can cause lasting hearing damage, yes? While distortion in transducers increases, sometimes massively, with volume, and while lower distortion at high listening levels is of course much more pleasant and high-fidelity, I'm not aware of any data or evidence suggesting that lower distortion is less harmful to one's hearing if the overall volume level remains just as high.

I have often wondered about this, because my impression is that a lot of - maybe even most? - audiophiles and home-audio enthusiasts seem to listen to music at louder levels than I do. I listen with speakers in a decent-sized but not huge room, about 16x20 with about 8.5 foot tall ceilings, with my ears about 8 feet from the speakers. Based on spl meter readings I generally listen at peak levels of about 75-85dB, usually in the lower half of that range. (I also suspect that this habit and preference has reduced felt need to upgrade my speakers anytime soon, as I get the sense from Amir's distortion graphs that the differences between good vs great speakers are probably more noticeable when you start pushing them above about 85dB or so.)

I'm just wondering how folks are regularly listening at 95-105 dB, for extended periods (yes?), and not experiencing any discomfort or impacts on their hearing?

I remember there was a thread in the forum where Amir discussed spl levels in live concerts. He mention that many are surprised that even classical music is around 95db at listening position in live concerts. Of course, sustained listening at this levels for long periods could be harmful.

 

[Galliardist]

Great point, but I do not think it’s the case. I am using Mytek Brooklyn DAC+, which at 0db gain produces more than 6volts output. McIntosh’s sensitivity is 4.2 volts. There is so much output from the DAC that I curtail dBFS input a bit in Roon.

If I remember correctly, the Mytek has unity gain in its preamp stage (unbalanced) and something like 5 or 6dB balanced. Looking at the McIntosh C49 preamp which would be the pair to your power amp, manufacturer's quoted specs are 15dB voltage gain and maximum output 16V balanced/8V unbalanced - all considerably more than the Mytek. I still suggest that gain is your problem here.

 

[gags11]

I hope all you guys, especially engineers, realize I post these to try to understand the reasons for the objective reasons why I hear this compression,

I think I may have the simplest of explanations. Fact 1, Kef r11 will never be able to reproduce live sound level spl without compression. Crossovers may have bean excuse.

2. I recently inserted a passive crossover into the active setup I had. I will test the same REW measurement with passive crossovers. Interesting what we will see. I also will push the Kef R11s to 110db REW sweep see the compression if any.

3. you may think you never listen that high average. True, but when listening to rock or pop, I am spoiled eith expectation to hear transients above 120db. with Kef r11s alone or Kef R11s + Sub, music does not sound right when played high. I will try to push the Kefs slowly to 110db at - meter as my active speakers. Those guys do not show any hint of compression at those levels (see below).

4. does all come to displacement? My active set up has 2 10 inch woofers on each side. Could these woofers be the key?

these are the measurements with my active set up

 

[leonroy]

Stupid question, but I don't suppose this could be a phase issue @gags11? I had my KEF speakers repaired a few years back and they sounded far worse than I remembered. After carefully listening I realized that KEF had mis-wired the bass woofer causing the left and right bass woofers to be out of phase. Bass sounded weird and lacking in volume, I sent it back to them to confirm and sure enough that was the culprit.

I'm not implying your speakers are internally miswired - but wondering if your subs are phase matched to your KEFs?

 

[Bear123]

If looking for speakers capable of lifelike, high SPL transient peaks with music, perhaps some of JTR's offerings would be a good option?
JTR Noesis 212 RT review

I also agree that most low sensitivity speakers compress in some form or fashion long before reaching moderate, real life SPL levels, or even a clap of the hands. I've been in fully reference capable, JTR equipped home theaters and reference level playback was comfortably loud and not overbearing. I've been run out of the room at -10 MV with less capable systems. Also, you can turn up an alarm clock radio full blast and it will have you covering your ears even though actual SPL is not very high. I think this concept is what colors most peoples perception of what is too loud……they just don't have the capability for accurate, clean, playback above fairly modest levels. I've seen comments in this thread…OMG 85 dB will destroy your hearing!!!!! Really? Clap your hands and record it with an SPL meter. I don't know of any low sensitivity speaker that can reproduce that accurately…the SPL is too high. We aren't talking about listening to the constant drone of machinery and equipment at 85 dB for 8 hours a day for 30 years. Dynamic peaks are a totally different, and unrelated topic, unless we are talking about extremely loud events like a gunshot, that cannot be replicated by speakers anyways.

 

[Galliardist]

https://www.hifinews.com/content/kef-r11-loudspeaker-lab-report
The R11 is not particularly insensitive at 89dB or so but has a low effective impedance. Even so your 400W per channel amp should happily drive those speakers to KEF’s stated maximum output of 113dB (taken from their international website) and you are describing running out of power,

What you need is the old fashioned solution, a traditional pre with 12dB gain. And I if you are really chasing more output than the KEF is specified for, move on. I don’t believe that though.

 

[gags11]

Stupid question, but I don't suppose this could be a phase issue @gags11? I had my KEF speakers repaired a few years back and they sounded far worse than I remembered. After carefully listening I realized that KEF had mis-wired the bass woofer causing the left and right bass woofers to be out of phase. Bass sounded weird and lacking in volume, I sent it back to them to confirm and sure enough that was the culprit.

I'm not implying your speakers are internally miswired - but wondering if your subs are phase matched to your KEFs?

Interesting point, I suppose that is possible.

 

[gags11]

Reviving this thread, as I think I figured out the issue.

All my frustrations started when I sold off my active setup and moved my new equipment to another room. Everything I tried in that room, sucked! At the end of the day I figured it must be the room.

I moved my current setup, which is composed of MiniDsp SHD studio feeding a few DACs and KEF R11 towers and Rythmik 12se sealed sub.

What a difference! In the room I moved my 2-channel system out of now, nothing worked. I had to have DSP correcting -20dB dips I was getting around 30, 150, and 250Hz. Even after correcting, walking 1-2ft horizontally caused huge differences.

I have included the pics of the rooms, but I think my family room was just not cut for stereo setup.

In my other room that has 22ft ceilings, everything is transformed! Music sounds smooth, dynamic and similar when moving around the room.

I am also so so impressed with Dirac. I tried tweaking the Dirac preference curve numerous times to achieve a bass response I liked.

The crazy thing is that the response my ears liked, was a weird preference Dirac curve, but the most flat response measured with a microphone!!!