Frustrated and venting, ideas will be helpful

[gags11]

Long story short, went from an active speaker setup to passive. Have bought and sold 3 sets of “good” speakers and auditioned many. I have come to the conclusion that everything sucks compared to my active speakers that I had. Those may have not been perfectly time adjusted, but they sounded real, like live performance. All the passive speakers I heard and own sound like recordings, and the reason is simple, they compress when playing loud.

Amir had a discussion about how loud one hears music in a concert hall. And many are surprised that the spl levels are very high. But I have noticed that when music is played loud without distortion, it sounds great snd is not tiring at all.

so… we discuss the accuracy of all these electronics. Do they really matter? My take is that dynamic range of the speakers/woofers , determined by amp-speaker or woofer combo is the single most important thing along with the room where it is played.

You can buy a DAC with 123db SINAD, but if your transducers suck, no help will be provided.

Of note, I still enjoy live piano even if I am not seating at the perfect spot to get the optimal frequency response. I think same goes for transducers, I vote for accuracy, yes. … But dynamic range of the amp transducer combo is as important if not more for enjoyment.

…. now I sold all my amps and bought new speakers. 3rd pair, with a new amp. Please someone convince me I should not go back.

PS: don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying crap speakers that play loud are good. However, quality transducers paired with quality amp… splash of dsp, that’s it.

 

[nerdstrike]

I piano is a massive soundboard with no particular directivity. With the lid up there is reflection off the lid, and that makes it more directed. Generally though it doesn't really care where you sit because it's not a point-source, at least when compared with a trumpet or speaker cone. Closer is better, but too close and you start to hear key actions, creaking damper mechanisms, fingernails and the singing of the strings when they're undamped.

In other words, the piano is not a great comparator for a hifi system. However, I feel for you. It seems that you had something good going on, and are trying to find it in other products that may remove or omit the quality you liked. Additionally most active packages have more than enough amplifier for each channel as well as DSP to compensate for deficiencies. It's not so easy to choose discrete amps and speakers and DSP to give great results, because that takes time and measurement to do really well.

Without specifics and measurements, it is also hard to tell whether the sound you are chasing was a quirk of the original speakers that you became accustomed to.

The measuring of DACs is important to weed out the crap, and to identify weaknesses in products. I've read quite a few reviews here that point out low performance from some of the inputs or outputs, or uncover idiosyncracies. It is good and important, even if every dB of potential above 96 is largely useless given the recordings available to us. Application of EQ on the other hand can make or break your enjoyment with modest adjustments.

 

[daftcombo]

Can you tell us which active speakers you had? And which passive you didn't like?

 

[abdo123]

Amir had a discussion about how loud one hears music in a concert hall. And many are surprised that the spl levels are very high. But I have noticed that when music is played loud without distortion, it sounds great snd is not tiring at all.

The majority of people think subwoofers are 'optional' and are immediately bombarded with intermodulation distortion and low frequency harmonic distortion before even approaching levels above 85 dB at 1 meter.

I completely agree.

 

[FrantzM]

I am enjoying as my music system a pair of cheap JBL LSR 308 (about $500/pair) helped by a pair of dirt cheap Dayton Audio SUB1500 subwoofers (about $500/pair) driven by an a Denon AVR (<$1000) ... I have been in HiFi for a long time... more than 50 years. Started when I was a kid. Memory is a bit fuzzy but this is probably and that said with a level of humiliation and regret (considering what I have spent on gear) the best system I have had and one of the best I've heard. I've heard and experienced many systems in the >$100.000 stratum
This has lead to change from a SINAD chaser to ... I don't have the exact word to qualify what I look after these days but I have come to understand that:
Smooth Frequency Response in the lows is important. Perhaps fundamental.
Good Directivity, perhaps, Constant directivity are important from the midrange to the highs.
Dynamic capabilities at the listening position. i-e the ability to go linearly from loud to soft or vice versa without compression and distortion are fundamental.

In my (limited) experience with active speakers, I have come to believe these are more capable than similarly priced passive speakers + amp systems in the 3 items I mentioned above. The fact that in active speakers, amplifiers are dedicated to respective drivers is the key; when you add the control/shaping/ extremely precise crossover afforded by now affordable DSP chips or assemblies, it is clear that the advantage is in active monitors/speakers.

I know the limits of my present system and will address them very soon. It will be in the direction of better active speakers (JBL 708p) , better subwoofers with better THD, more reach in the lows (SVS, Rythmik?) . DRC, later...
No way out of it. Active speakers rule!


P.S My audiophile creds were already damaged. This post puts the final nail in the coffin.

 

[gags11]

Can you tell us which active speakers you had? And which passive you didn't like?

I had and still have, though sold the amps powering them. I demolished a Klipsch RF7 ii. Took out the horn and replaced it with scanspeak 12mu mids. using pioneer/ TAD beryllium ribbon twitters for the highs. I really love how the Klipsch 10” woofers sound. These can play very loud without a strain, and are very smooth in the frequency response as well.

 

[gags11]

Can you tell us which active speakers you had? And which passive you didn't like?

Highly modified Klipsch RF7ii with Scanspeak 12mu mids and Pioneer beryllium ribbon tweeters.

 

[oursmagenta]

Highly modified Klipsch RF7ii with Scanspeak 12mu mids and Pioneer beryllium ribbon tweeters.

View attachment 137325

Huh.

How did you tuned (if any) your custom crossovers? By hear? With measurements? With simulations? Any combination of the three?

And what about the directivity?

 

[pjug]

How is compression related to active vs passive? I'm not saying it isn't, just that I don't see why it would be.

 

[abdo123]

How is compression related to active vs passive? I'm not saying it isn't, just that I don't see why it would be.

Active Speakers usually have limiters in place to stop the speaker from overdriving. I think that's what OP was referencing to but the words escaped him.

 

[FrantzM]

How is compression related to active vs passive? I'm not saying it isn't, just that I don't see why it would be.

Venturing the fact that most of the time "active" means powered too... You have attached to each driver, an amplifier responsible for the audio band to be reproduced by that driver, nothing else,. This is better than having one amplifier with its power divided inefficiently by a passive crossover network... where there are R,L,C elements with all their frequency and level dependent-losses...

 

[pjug]

Venturing the fact that most of the time "active" means powered too... You have attached to each driver, an amplifier responsible for the audio band to be reproduced by that driver, nothing else,. This is better than having one amplifier with its power divided inefficiently by a passive crossover network... where there are R,L,C elements with all their frequency and level dependent-losses...

Are typical RLC losses significantly non-linear as a function of level changes?

 

[gags11]

How is compression related to active vs passive? I'm not saying it isn't, just that I don't see why it would be.

In many cases passive crossovers inside speakers can be the limiting factor. You usually do not get the same power you have put in, out. Limiting frequency to a certain audio band is one thing the crossovers do, but the impedance and amount of power are not the same and are affected as well.

This is the exact reason why nicely designed speakers have horrible sensitivities in general. In many cases, active speakers are at least 10 and sometimes 20 times more efficient. This will certainly help the amp papwering the speakers. If you want to play music at 100-110db levels with your Salon 2s, this would definitely be a problem. Also, passive crossovers usually have a limit to how much power they would be able to accept and output. This part can cause compression as well.

 

[gags11]

Huh.

How did you tuned (if any) your custom crossovers? By hear? With measurements? With simulations? Any combination of the three?

And what about the directivity?

I did it using measurements with a microphone. There are many options for active crossovers. I have used both analog active and digital ones, like miniDSP with Dirac.

 

[pjug]

In many cases passive crossovers inside speakers can be the limiting factor. You usually do not get the same power you have put in, out. Limiting frequency to a certain audio band is one thing the crossovers do, but the impedance and amount of power are not the same and are affected as well.

This is the exact reason why nicely designed speakers have horrible sensitivities in general. In many cases, active speakers are at least 10 and sometimes 20 times more efficient. This will certainly help the amp papwering the speakers. If you want to play music at 100-110db levels with your Salon 2s, this would definitely be a problem. Also, passive crossovers usually have a limit to how much power they would be able to accept and output. This part can cause compression as well.

Just on the point of compression since compression is blamed in the OP: I am having a hard time finding any info on compression effects caused by passive crossovers. I can see where it might be something, since capacitance will change with voltage for example. But is it typically a concern with good crossovers? All the discussion I am finding just talks about driver compression.

 

[gags11]

Just on the point of compression since compression is blamed in the OP: I am having a hard time finding any info on compression effects caused by passive crossovers. I can see where it might be something, since capacitance will change with voltage for example. But is it typically a concern with good crossovers? All the discussion I am finding just talks about driver compression.

I may be misusing the word compression. My way of understanding compression is that when you increase the voltage input at some point the frequency response starts to change in a bad way. True, drivers are a main source of compression, but crossovers can be as well, imho. I do think crossovers have limits on power. A lot of crossovers you can buy have a specification for max power. What happens to when you exceed that?

 

[DSJR]

I seem to remember passive speakers needed three or more times the amp power output to get through; the crossover. Maybe that applies to stand mounted squitters rather than a larger floor standing model with proper sized bass units

 

[pjug]

I may be misusing the word compression. My way of understanding compression is that when you increase the voltage input at some point the frequency response starts to change in a bad way. True, drivers are a main source of compression, but crossovers can be as well, imho. I do think crossovers have limits on power. A lot of crossovers you can buy have a specification for max power. What happens to when you exceed that?

An interesting question. I wonder if experts have thoughts on practical effects of pushing the limits of crossover components. I would have guessed behavior is not so bad if you don't fry them. @Dennis Murphy ?

 

[pjug]

I seem to remember passive speakers needed three or more times the amp power output to get through; the crossover. Maybe that applies to stand mounted squitters rather than a larger floor standing model with proper sized bass units

I'm sure it depends. A tweeter might have a series resistor making it require more power (but who cares?). A woofer crossover would often have minimal impedance until it starts rolling off. In general I'm not sure crossovers are much to blame for low speaker sensitivity.

 

[raindance]

Maybe we should establish what your expectations are. How big is the room? How far away do you sit? What genre do you mostly listen to? What are the speakers/amp you are actually using and what was it you were somewhat happy with in the past? What is the state of your hearing - has it been tested recently? I have never found the need to overdrive speakers or crossovers or push my amps to clipping, but maybe that is because I understand the limitations of trying to create live events in a domestic room (plus I just can't tolerate peaks louder than about 93dB these days). I used to mix live sound in my younger days, so I know what stuff should sound like before it is mangled by the recording and playback chain .