Fremer's Turntables Have a Sound Video

[ReasonableAudiophile]

I saw this video from Micael Fremer which I will post down below where he compares two different turntables with the same cartridge, tonearm and phono preamp. The point of this video was to prove that turntables have characteristics that effect sound. I have an issue with this type of test because we aren't told if this is the same cart, arm, preamp being swapped or if it's two of the same model of each for each table. Using the same cartridge, arm, and preamp — physically swapped, not two examples of the same model — is the only honest way to isolate the turntable as the variable. Even then, VTA, azimuth, tracking force, overhang alignment — all of that gets disturbed every time you remount. So you're not really hearing turntable A vs. turntable B. You're hearing turntable A with setup condition 1 vs. turntable B with setup condition 2, and the differences you attribute to the plinth or the bearing or the motor are partly or largely setup artifacts.
And the two-units-of-the-same-model problem is real. Cart compliance, cantilever geometry, stylus tip shape — these vary within a production run. Two Lyra Atlas Lambda SL's are not the same transducer. So Fremer isn't even controlling for the cartridge when he uses matching models.
I am a believer in the words of Edgar Villchur who said the job of the turntable is to get out of the way and if he had a gun to his head to design a turntable with a specific soundstage, he wouldn't know how to do it.

 

[Buckchester]

Ahh Fremer.…

 

[Timcognito]

Ahh Vinyl....

 

[Balle Clorin]

I have an issue with this type of test because we aren't told if this is the same cart, arm, preamp being swapped or if it's two of the same model of each for each table. Using the same cartridge, arm, and preamp — physically swapped, not two examples of the same model — is the only honest way to isolate the turntable as the variable.

You better the see the video once more ,he tells you explicitly that is is the same of everything except the turntable...

I analyzed the sound files, and the TechDas with vacuum platter is far superior, the other TT gives wow and low level oscillations and intermodulations distortions, since the cartridge jumps around much more. it is quite a good example that proper clamping record to platter makes a difference

The reason for having a RIAA with a sharp subsonic filter is very obvious here, The OMA TT trigger far more low end resonance due to the the lack of record clamping/vacuum. A comparison with a proper clamp would be interesting.the OMA clamp does not have an good effect

Balles kladdebok

Denne var nyttig..for RC last av sekundær vikling på MC trafo. https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=8200 info om Menno Vandeveen MC step up https://mennovanderveen.nl/images/onderzoek-ontwikkeling/publicaties/mc-10-en.pdf

www.hifisentralen.no

 

[ReasonableAudiophile]

You better the see the video once more ,he tells you explicitly that is is the same of everything except the turntable...

I understand that, but as I originally stated, he doesn't say if it was one cart, one arm and one preamp swapped or two of the same for each table.

 

[Balle Clorin]

What don’t you understand when he say the only thing changed was the turntable, same cartridge, same armen same riaa?

 

[ReasonableAudiophile]

He's saying "everything's the same just on two different turntables". I stated two points in my original post. One is that he doesn't specify what "everything's the same" means. Same meaning same brand or same meaning one individual of each installed on one table, then broken down and put on the next. Either way, even if it is one cart, arm and preamp disassembled on one and put on the other, as I stated in my original post VTA, azimuth, tracking force, overhang alignment — all of that gets disturbed every time you remount. So you're not really hearing turntable A vs. turntable B. You're hearing turntable A with setup condition 1 vs. turntable B with setup condition 2, and the differences you attribute to the plinth or the bearing or the motor are partly or largely setup artifacts.

 

[Balle Clorin]

i can measure the effect of 0.1 degree zenith or VTA error, but you would not hear it..
Did you hear any difference between the TT? Even with possible set up deviation and the obvious resonance problem?
The resonance difference has little to do with set up, it is the obvious effect of flattening a record warp by vacuum or not. One TT flatten the warps better than the other, and low end resonance ie clearly different between the TT, the real question is if it is audible nor not.. I have the measurements to prove it .. but what does your ears tell you.

You are evading the point, you complaint is that the equipment apart from TT was not the same , it is.
Everybody knows alignment etc may vary when a cartridge is moved.
My very clear point is that the TTs vary in how the interaction is between cartridge and record . This is my last comment , have a nice weekend. We do not disagree as much as you might think, I just wanted to correct your initial statement

 

[Alexander Gödde]

I don't understand how Michael Fremer can believe that vinyl is superior to digital and then use compressed-to-hell (by "audiophile" standards) YouTube audio with the expectation that it can convey subtle differences between TOTL record players to the viewer - who is likely to use some middling to terrible playback system. The logic for that really doesn't work out.

 

[Palmer]

I don't understand how Michael Fremer can believe that vinyl is superior to digital and then use compressed-to-hell (by "audiophile" standards) YouTube audio with the expectation that it can convey subtle differences between TOTL record players to the viewer - who is likely to use some middling to terrible playback system. The logic for that really doesn't work out.

I don't understand Michael Fremer, and I hope I never will. It sort of creeps in - every now and then, but I fight it. If you know what I mean... So there's that.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

lol fremer. That dude beat the drums for MQA.

So you're not really hearing turntable A vs. turntable B. You're hearing turntable A with setup condition 1 vs. turntable B with setup condition 2

It's even worse: You're hearing Youtube for both cases.

 

[Chrispy]

If it's Fremer I just tend to move on. This doesn't look to be any reason to make an exception.

 

[Dialectic]

He is, or was, a member of this forum.

@analogplanet, if you are still around, please weigh in.

 

[ReasonableAudiophile]

You are evading the point, you complaint is that the equipment apart from TT was not the same , it is.
Everybody knows alignment etc may vary when a cartridge is moved.
My very clear point is that the TTs vary in how the interaction is between cartridge and record . This is my last comment , have a nice weekend. We do not disagree as much as you might think, I just wanted to correct your initial statement

I appreciate your input. In answer to your question, I did listen and I did hear subtle differences although both samples sounded as good as they can through a youtube compressed sound sample. Also, just to clarify, I wasn't saying the equipment apart from the TT was not the same, I was simply saying that MF did not specify clearly what he meant by the same.
Regardless, I don't think we disagree that much either and I appreciate your input. Have a nice weekend.

 

[Redacted]

Is he the chap who patented Blu-Tacking a penny on top of the needle thing?

 

[ReasonableAudiophile]

I don't understand how Michael Fremer can believe that vinyl is superior to digital and then use compressed-to-hell (by "audiophile" standards) YouTube audio with the expectation that it can convey subtle differences between TOTL record players to the viewer - who is likely to use some middling to terrible playback system. The logic for that really doesn't work out.

Personally, I would never say vinyl sounds better than digital, it certainly sounds different and in some cases more realistic, but I would never make a blanket statement that vinyl sounds better. I have some vinyl records that sound horrible and some that sound amazing and I have some CDs that sound terrible and some that sound amazing. I love listening to vinyl records, but I would never say digital is horrible. That's just part of the fetishization of the vinyl cult.

 

[Multicore]

Is he the chap who patented Blu-Tacking a penny on top of the needle thing?

That was me.

 

[whereisbrian]

Ahh Vinyl....

That's exactly it. Sometimes I wonder if vinyl playback isn't just there to fuel all sorts of compressed videos where creators can keep the tap flowing with comparisons and trivialities

 

[Timcognito]

That's exactly it. Sometimes I wonder if vinyl playback isn't just there to fuel all sorts of compressed videos where creators can keep the tap flowing with comparisons and trivialities

It's a hobby for collectors that requires knowledge of all its idiosyncrasies and collection of old new material not much different from other collecting hobbies. Certainly not about audio purity, simplicity or ease of use. It's kind of antithetical on some levels to many who come here so it gets scorn. I have kept my VPI turntable and 600+ lps but never play them only becuse it represents much effort and much joy in its day. The true love is for the music which so vast in a digital format, especially combined with the internet. Not a hater but no longer a collector. But I do have these

 

[Mojo Warrior]

That crowd was never about the scientific method