Frankly, it's hell to choose an AVR

[dlaloum]

During the Storm Dirac video when the guy from Storm asked about ART movie past 150hz, I can’t recall the exact response but it was far from for sure Dirac was going to move up beyond 150hz. Thought it was interesting as they were concerned about audiblility.

In one of the earlier videos, they talked about having used (tested?) up to 4kHz in a controlled (automotive) environment.

During that same interview, they mentioned planning for up to 500Hz with the AVR/PC version, but starting out with only 150Hz

Plans change (!) - I get that! - but they are definitely going a lot higher up the frequency range in auto environments, and I believe it was mentioned by some testers, that test versions of ART allowed for a higher frequency limit...

Whether it ends up being viable (and that involves a lot of variables! - and not just technical ones) - is a different matter.

 

[Chrispy]

Well until they give us something better, the power supply listed on the back is all we have to go by.

Sound and Vision used to provide in their reviews wattage by all channels driven, not just two channels.

A while ago, it reviewed a Integra Receiver that I owned, review did all 7 Channels driven ( something like 120 watts per), the total was under what the Receiver said on the back ( if I remember correctly, think it was around 1000 watts), then they did a Yamaha Receiver I owned ( different time period ), all channels driven was 50 watts for 7, power listed on the back was 450 watts, both receivers was listed over 120 watts per channel in the specs.

Now, the new Integra 8.4 lists the power supply at 1095 watts, the Sony STR-AZ7000ES lists 540 watts, which should I believe has the most headroom, because that is a big difference.

Sorry if already offered up, but this explains some of the stated manual/back off avr consumption mentions https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/receiver-back-panel-power-ratings

 

[Dj7675]

In one of the earlier videos, they talked about having used (tested?) up to 4kHz in a controlled (automotive) environment.

During that same interview, they mentioned planning for up to 500Hz with the AVR/PC version, but starting out with only 150Hz

Plans change (!) - I get that! - but they are definitely going a lot higher up the frequency range in auto environments, and I believe it was mentioned by some testers, that test versions of ART allowed for a higher frequency limit...

Whether it ends up being viable (and that involves a lot of variables! - and not just technical ones) - is a different matter.

Hard to say where it will end up as things evolve. In that latest video I referenced in case you haven’t seen it with StormAudio and Dirac HERE at around the 1:23 mark they talk about the current limit that is going to be 150hz. The Storm guy mentions that it could go up to 300hz and the Dirac guy doesn’t seem comfortable saying that and the Stormaudio guy takes over talking. I would have preferred him let the Dirac guy say more but it did seem like even 300hz was coming for now but like you said hard to know where it will end up. Regardless, it is a fundamentally different way of doing things will be very exciting once it gets out officially in late May. Hopefully more brands implement it and sooner than DLBC so more can take advantage of it.

 

[Chrispy]

@christo9 did you come to a decision? Personally I'd rank them mostly on feature set, with an appropriate amp section, dsp/req that you want and an agreeable price. More a commodity than specifically different aside from those things. Somewhat reliability/backup but that's somewhat hard to determine, many don't keep them around more than until the next latest/greatest version.

 

[srrxr71]

The subjective differences between 1080p and 4K on my 110" diagonal projection screen are less than the differences in mastering/disc authoring quality. Meaning there is 1080P content that "looks" better than some 4K content. Since it will probably be years, maybe decades before we have native 8K production, all 8K will be upscaled from lower resolution.

I think 8K is a solution creating a problem.

The only time it matters is when you are generating an image ie. video games.

You generate at 8k and down sample down to 4k. That makes the generated image much cleaner.

The actual display at 4k is just fine.

 

[Spocko]

Currently I have a Yamaha RX-A2060 for home theater and a Primare stereo amp for music.
Due to lack of space, I would like to replace both of them with a new Home Theater AVR.

It's really hard to make the right choice. When I go to listen to an AVR, it is each time in different conditions (room and speakers).
In these conditions, it is difficult to compare.

When I read the posts of others, I see that I am not the only one in this situation.

As I am satisfied with my Primare stereo amp, I looked at the AVR Primare SPA-25. To tell the truth, it's quite expensive and it doesn't support 8K (I don't need it now but there might be more 8K content in 5 years).

Then I saw a good opportunity on an Arcam AVR20, even on the AVR30 (currently, with the release of the new AVR 21/31, the “old” AVR20/30 are much cheaper than the primare). Lots of positive reviews but it seems pretty buggy compared to models from Marantz/Denon, Yamaha, etc...

Then there is also the Nad T778 which seemed to have good qualities. Like the Arcam, a lot of bugs.

Then I see a thread on this forum where an Arcam and compared to a Denon. According to Amir, you can't go wrong with a Denon.

In short, I don't know what to think anymore.

My recommendation is to approach AVRs from its design and engineering purpose: home theater/entertainment experience. Every product is built to a budget so they must prioritize their best performing features for the intended audience. With this in mind, the most important things when shopping for an AVR are:

1. Compatibility of all input/output use cases such as TVs (8K? Dolby Vision? eARC), audio system (digital input? XLR pre-outs? multiple subwoofers?), gaming (consoles? PC gaming? 4K120 VRR?), etc
2. Home theater immersion: at least Atmos and DTS? Multiple subwoofers? Do you really need 13.4.4? Amplifier power rating? Auro3D? Center Channel Uplift? Front Surround Wide Speaker setup? Can it push your speakers loud enough or do you need external amplifiers?
3. Works as-is without promises of future firmware to implement features you want. Avoid "future proofing" promises! If it works for what you need now, great, otherwise never assume a mystery feature will work in the future if you haven't tested it within the return period.
4. Ignore SINAD and similar "audio performance metrics" because just accomplishing the above #1 to #3 is already hard enough and if you're streaming from Netflix, Prime or HBO, they're ALL lossy compressed audio codecs anyway. For AVRs, best to focus on the features you need to fit into your entertainment parameters which should be home theater enjoyment.

I have found Denon to work as-is out of the box consistently while Anthem took a year (or 2?) for its firmware to fix several bugs. Arcam AVR software historically has been buggy. For me, the safe bet is always Denon/Marantz as far as features that work out of the box (with the exception of HDMI 2.1 a few years back). I'm hearing great things about the latest Sony AVRs which is what I'll likely get because it has some unique features I need. And because I plan to keep AVRs for a while, I always get the extended warranty because these things can get hot and bad things happen to electronics over time.

 

[Spkrdctr]

My recommendation is to approach AVRs from its design and engineering purpose: home theater/entertainment experience. E

1. Compatibility of all input/output use cases such as TVs (8K? Dolby Vision? eARC), audio system (digital input? XLR pre-outs? multiple subwoofers?), gaming (consoles? PC gaming? 4K120 VRR?), etc
2. Home theater immersion: at least Atmos Center Channel Uplift? Front Surround Wide Speaker setup? Can it push your speakers loud enough or do you need external amplifiers?
3. Works as-is without promises of future firmware to implement features you want. Avoid "future proofing" promises!
4. Ignore SINAD and similar "audio performance metrics" because just accomplishing the above #1 to #3 is already hard enough.

I have found Denon to work as-is out of the box consistently

I'm adding my two cents based on your two cents. I highlighted what I thought were the absolute stand out very important points that I consider an absolute must. Since you made such a great post, I could only say, "Yes, what he said"!

 

[EWL5]

Ignore SINAD and similar "audio performance metrics" because just accomplishing the above #1 to #3 is already hard enough and if you're streaming from Netflix, Prime or HBO, they're ALL lossy compressed audio codecs anyway. For AVRs, best to focus on the features you need to fit into your entertainment parameters which should be home theater enjoyment.

I've watched quite a bit of 4k Prime or HBO w/the accompanying ATMOS tracks (when available) and they have been nothing short of outstanding! What streaming services are "lossy only" and do you have references?

 

[Spkrdctr]

I've watched quite a bit of 4k Prime or HBO w/the accompanying ATMOS tracks (when available) and they have been nothing short of outstanding! What streaming services are "lossy only" and do you have references?

I have Prime and every once in a great while it is Atmos and it is very nice.

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

I have a small living room that's connected to the kitchen. The room configuration mandates having the on the A/V equipment on the long wall. The TV and speakers are about 12" from the listening/viewing position. In a room that size about 30 clean WPC is more than adequate. I'm using a 3.1 speaker configuration because of the "Wires!" problem. An inexpensive amplifier with decent measurements is more than adequate. The 1080p 55" TV looks great from the couch. Room correction combined with an average 5 WPC or less audio output is great for music and movies as far as I'm concerned. Some reasonably efficient much higher end speakers might improve the situation noticeably, but I doubt a better AVR would make much difference.
I think the most important question in home theater is the room. If you think in terms of the limits of the human ear in perceiving distortion and how much output power you need to reach the maximum loudness your ears can stand in your room you've answered the equipment question. After that it's room correction. Of course, that doesn't mean that more features and better measurements won't contribute to your overall satisfaction level for the same reason that some people prefer a high end car with capabilities that people will never use in ordinary driving. Wanting a Ferrari over a Toyota isn't unreasonable. FWIW, I think my audio setup sounds as good or better than local movie theaters so I may be just weird.

 

[Spocko]

I've watched quite a bit of 4k Prime or HBO w/the accompanying ATMOS tracks (when available) and they have been nothing short of outstanding! What streaming services are "lossy only" and do you have references?

All streaming services use Dolby Digital Plus which by definition is lossy/compressed whereas the only lossless version is Dolby TrueHD (for blu ray discs) which is NOT used by any streaming service (not even Bravia Core). However, you bring up a different point: lossy sounds great anyway! And that was the point of my original post - ignore SINAD if you're enjoying lossy Dolby Digital Plus. When we say "lossy" it just means highly compressed with some data thrown out so that it takes up less bandwidth, but it doesn't necessarily mean "sounds bad".

Reference from Dolby: https://professional.dolby.com/streaming/#gref

 

[Spkrdctr]

All streaming services use Dolby Digital Plus which by definition is lossy/compressed whereas the only lossless version is Dolby TrueHD (for blu ray discs) which is NOT used by any streaming service (not even Bravia Core). However, you bring up a different point: lossy sounds great anyway! And that was the point of my original post - ignore SINAD if you're enjoying lossy Dolby Digital Plus. When we say "lossy" it just means highly compressed with some data thrown out so that it takes up less bandwidth, but it doesn't necessarily mean "sounds bad".

Reference from Dolby: https://professional.dolby.com/streaming/#gref

View attachment 289781

Spocko, nice post. Seems good old Dolby knows what they are doing! It seems you are knowledgeable on this stuff. Do you know what ever happened to I think it was called "The Ranch" Skywalker Ranch? by a famous sound company. They were going to dominate the movie scene but I haven't heard of them in 10 years at least.

 

[Spocko]

Spocko, nice post. Seems good old Dolby knows what they are doing! It seems you are knowledgeable on this stuff. Do you know what ever happened to I think it was called "The Ranch" Skywalker Ranch? by a famous sound company. They were going to dominate the movie scene but I haven't heard of them in 10 years at least.

Still there! https://www.lucasfilm.com/campuses/skywalker-ranch/

 

[Dj7675]

I have a small living room that's connected to the kitchen. The room configuration mandates having the on the A/V equipment on the long wall. The TV and speakers are about 12" from the listening/viewing position. In a room that size about 30 clean WPC is more than adequate. I'm using a 3.1 speaker configuration because of the "Wires!" problem. An inexpensive amplifier with decent measurements is more than adequate. The 1080p 55" TV looks great from the couch. Room correction combined with an average 5 WPC or less audio output is great for music and movies as far as I'm concerned. Some reasonably efficient much higher end speakers might improve the situation noticeably, but I doubt a better AVR would make much difference.
I think the most important question in home theater is the room. If you think in terms of the limits of the human ear in perceiving distortion and how much output power you need to reach the maximum loudness your ears can stand in your room you've answered the equipment question. After that it's room correction. Of course, that doesn't mean that more features and better measurements won't contribute to your overall satisfaction level for the same reason that some people prefer a high end car with capabilities that people will never use in ordinary driving. Wanting a Ferrari over a Toyota isn't unreasonable. FWIW, I think my audio setup sounds as good or better than local movie theaters so I may be just weird.

I’m assuming your 12” is supposed to be feet, correct? The amount of watts needed certainly could be correct if you had very sensitive speakers and listen at very low levels. Average bookshelf speaker is around 85/86db sensitivity though and if want more of a theater experience, the amount of power jumps up very quickly. In many living rooms people may not be looking at very high volume but if you have a dedicated theater room and want to listen anywhere around 80dB with 20dB peaks you will need more power and speakers that can handle it. 5 watts for a movie seems very very low. Is it based on actual calculations or measurements?

 

[dlaloum]

I’m assuming your 12” is supposed to be feet, correct? The amount of watts needed certainly could be correct if you had very sensitive speakers and listen at very low levels. Average bookshelf speaker is around 85/86db sensitivity though and if want more of a theater experience, the amount of power jumps up very quickly. In many living rooms people may not be looking at very high volume but if you have a dedicated theater room and want to listen anywhere around 80dB with 20dB peaks you will need more power and speakers that can handle it. 5 watts for a movie seems very very low. Is it based on actual calculations or measurements?

Well the key point is the reference level / the average listening level.

THX consumer level is 75db and Cinema/Theatre level is 85db

But ultimately the best measure is to actually measure the average level at which YOU personally listen.

For me, it is around 75db, and allowing for 20db peak headroom, my system therefore needs to be capable of 95db (my measurements show that I very very seldom reach peaks of 16W @ 8ohm !!)

My system is easily capable of an additional 10db beyond that and probably more

a 3db difference is a doubling/halving of power - so if I wanted an additional 9db beyond my 16W, it would take approximately 128W to achieve it (16W peaks x2 x2 x2...) beyond that raising it another 3db would take me to 256W, and a further 3db to 512W (and that last step would be beyond my amps capabilities)

So the starting point has to be the level at which you personally enjoy listening.... everything else will flow from that.

 

[Turbo6]

Nothing will be perfect but coming from several Denons, and recently a Denon 8500, 6700, to Marantz Cinema 50 -

The best sounding receiver I’ve ever used is my current Sony 7000ES. Has all the features I need and performs as well as I could ask for.

 

[Vacceo]

My recommendation is to approach AVRs from its design and engineering purpose: home theater/entertainment experience. Every product is built to a budget so they must prioritize their best performing features for the intended audience. With this in mind, the most important things when shopping for an AVR are:

1. Compatibility of all input/output use cases such as TVs (8K? Dolby Vision? eARC), audio system (digital input? XLR pre-outs? multiple subwoofers?), gaming (consoles? PC gaming? 4K120 VRR?), etc
2. Home theater immersion: at least Atmos and DTS? Multiple subwoofers? Do you really need 13.4.4? Amplifier power rating? Auro3D? Center Channel Uplift? Front Surround Wide Speaker setup? Can it push your speakers loud enough or do you need external amplifiers?
3. Works as-is without promises of future firmware to implement features you want. Avoid "future proofing" promises! If it works for what you need now, great, otherwise never assume a mystery feature will work in the future if you haven't tested it within the return period.
4. Ignore SINAD and similar "audio performance metrics" because just accomplishing the above #1 to #3 is already hard enough and if you're streaming from Netflix, Prime or HBO, they're ALL lossy compressed audio codecs anyway. For AVRs, best to focus on the features you need to fit into your entertainment parameters which should be home theater enjoyment.

I have found Denon to work as-is out of the box consistently while Anthem took a year (or 2?) for its firmware to fix several bugs. Arcam AVR software historically has been buggy. For me, the safe bet is always Denon/Marantz as far as features that work out of the box (with the exception of HDMI 2.1 a few years back). I'm hearing great things about the latest Sony AVRs which is what I'll likely get because it has some unique features I need. And because I plan to keep AVRs for a while, I always get the extended warranty because these things can get hot and bad things happen to electronics over time.

While I do agree with those steps, I'd also include a reference to room equalization. Dirac, Audyssey and so on are incredible tools.

 

[dlaloum]

While I do agree with those steps, I'd also include a reference to room equalization. Dirac, Audyssey and so on are incredible tools.

Those are however, very room dependent - Most rooms would get a benefit from RoomEQ - but not all...

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Does anyone here have experience with the Tone Winner AT-300? It looks like the cheapest way to get an Atmos capable processor with XLR outputs, and I'm interested in building out an all-active surround system over time. (I should be able to get around the HDMI 2.0 limitation by using eARC, no?)

 

[dlaloum]

Does anyone here have experience with the Tone Winner AT-300? It looks like the cheapest way to get an Atmos capable processor with XLR outputs, and I'm interested in building out an all-active surround system over time. (I should be able to get around the HDMI 2.0 limitation by using eARC, no?)

The main gap with the AT300 seems to be a good RoomEQ system.... if they provided an optional Dirac licence.... especially if including the options of DLBC and ART (in future) - they would sell like hot cakes.

The market is begging for a good reasonably priced prepro with Dirac options.

All reviews of the performance seem to be positive - and the manufacturer seems reputable - but I doubt it will get much penetration in the market without RoomEQ.