I use the ZP3 between a Topping D90 Discrete and a pair of Topping B200 mono blocks. The Topping remote was so bad I purchased this for the volume control and the ability to limit the low frequency energy going to the speakers. The result was a happy life. I do not have too much anxiety about the volume being off as I never use the knob. If this did happen I should be okay as the amplifiers are at the lowest gain. The overall sound signature did change when I added this and I decided after a back and forth, I was happier with the ZP3 in the chain. Overall the sound blending with a RSL 300E and a pair of Infinity R263 has been great. Note the D90 Discrete PEQ function is used to adjust the Main speakers, and with this preamplifier I removed the low end boost on the Infinity speakers and had the sub woofer do the work with the unaltered signal.
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Fosi Audio ZP3 Preamplifier Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
The same goes for most components/stages. Nothing is ever going to rescue the sound from the lowest performing item in the chain. Especially in regard to S/N Ratio and Dynamic Range. As you correctly state, the worst performing part will win.
raif71
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Perhaps orange is to please someone whose hair is that color so that t***ff is lowered ?
Boredcarrot
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I've had mine unplugged heaps of times and it's always remembered the volume level. Never had a problem.
ninja1
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1. Wiim pro plus --- RCA --- ZP3 - ZP3 --- RCA/XLR cable --- power amp (XLR input only) or
2. Wiim pro plus --- RCA --- ZP3 - ZP3 --- XLR cable --- power amp (XLR input only)
So I have both cables available rca to xlr, and XLR. I will try both and expect no difference. Length of cables is less than 1 m.
What voltage will be on amp input in solution 1 and 2 ?
Balanced or not ?
Potentional benefit of 1 vs 2 ?
... probabelly 2. is better solution , but just courious to learn.
thx
2. Wiim pro plus --- RCA --- ZP3 - ZP3 --- XLR cable --- power amp (XLR input only)
So I have both cables available rca to xlr, and XLR. I will try both and expect no difference. Length of cables is less than 1 m.
What voltage will be on amp input in solution 1 and 2 ?
Balanced or not ?
Potentional benefit of 1 vs 2 ?
... probabelly 2. is better solution , but just courious to learn.
thx
totti1965
Addicted to Fun and Learning
At least, if you are using a pair of Topping B100 amps, the second option
(2. Wiim pro plus --- RCA --- ZP3 - ZP3 --- XLR cable --- power amp (XLR input only)) is much, much better!
Don´t use any RCA to XLR adaptors with this amp (many posts about heavy loss in output power when using an adaptor are in the Topping B100 thread! - Only 3 or 4 Watts instead of clean 50 Watts at 8 Ohms!!!).
Potential benefit of 1 vs 2?
No benefit at all with any amp, afaik. Where should the benefit come from?
I asume the Voltage on the input of the power amp is max. 4.4 Volts with the second option and 2.18 Volts with option 1
Best usecase: RCA to RCA or XLR to XLR (a bit better)
If you can avoid adaptors, simply avoid them.
Yours,
thorsten
ninja1
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Thank you Thorsten !
Amp is class d Purifi 1E6525....
My question was more about signal path in ZP3..Input voltage on ZP3 rca is 2,0 V. Then (?) adc - dac - 4v out(on XLR) ? Is this fully balanced signal ?
totti1965
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Yes. I think the signal is then internally balanced and sufficiently amplified:
The Fosi ZP3 has active gain, so there is a bit of amplification with the signal.
Perhaps a test with the same volume setting will help to find out:
Wouldn't the XLR output then be necessarily louder (with the same position of the volume control!) than the unbalanced one?
Or am I totally wrong?
There are better experts out there, like @staticV3 - perhaps he can make things a bit clearer.
Yours,
thorsten
ninja1
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1. Wiim pro plus --- RCA --- ZP3 - ZP3 --- RCA/XLR cable --- power amp (XLR input only) or
2. Wiim pro plus --- RCA --- ZP3 - ZP3 --- XLR cable --- power amp (XLR input only)
so, output from ZP3:
1. rca to xlr cable, unbalanced, 2 V + ZP3 gain (but better then rca to rca - noise rejection and interference resilience ) ?
2. xlr to xlr cable, ballanced, 4 V + ZP3 gain ?
I bought the ZP3 and ZD3 on a whim from kickstarter after being impressed with the ZA3 and V3 mono amps. I swapped the ZP3 and and ZD3 into my system in place of a Topping Pre90 and Topping D90 and...... essentially no difference. I know there's no measurement to support it but the Fosi preamp and DAC sound more analog to me than the Topping. I like them both. I noticed my phono preamp is significantly louder into the ZP3 versus the Pre90. I don't want to turn the gain down on the phono (ProJect PhonoBox S2) because its a pain and I'll probably swap back to the Topping.
The Fosi stuff has remained in place because I'm too lazy to swap it. Been using daily since kickstarter launch, no volume problems. Fosi makes stuff that sounds as good as the segment leading devices for a lot less money. I'll always give them a shot.
The Fosi stuff has remained in place because I'm too lazy to swap it. Been using daily since kickstarter launch, no volume problems. Fosi makes stuff that sounds as good as the segment leading devices for a lot less money. I'll always give them a shot.
No difference than turning off the power switch on back. It remembers the VC setting.
totti1965
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Hi ninja1,
I think, I really don’t understand the question:
For me, it would be a complete no-Brainer:
Amir’s measurements show us, that the results with XLR to XLR (and 4.4 Volts) are changing from
„Very good“ (98 db) with RCA and adaptors to „exceptional good“ (108 dB).
So it is an intelligent decision to make the work of the 1ET6525 a little bit more easy and give him perfect symmetrical 4.4 Volt at maximum. Perhaps you can put the gain of the 1ET6525 then also one step lower?
But this will bring you just additional 3 dB or so.
By the way, I am just curious which 1ET6525 exactly you are using. This is one of the best power amps ever build!
Yours,
thorsten
ninja1
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Hi Thorsten,
yes I read my post and it is not quite clear...
1. At the moment I have Wiim Pro plus + tube amp PrimaLuna HP Dialogue Integrated + Spendor D9.2 (90dB/8ohm)
2. I have ordered Boxem power amp Arthur E4216/E2 , which will be delivered in aprox 10 days. You have review by Amir for this amp, just in different case (A E4216/E2).
Only different is that I have Arthur version which have 3 gain settings and better/nicer case.
Gain 12.3 / 20.3 / 26.3 dB
Minimal load below 2 Ohm
Input typeXLR
Input sensitivity 8 Ohm 2.0 / 4.0 / 9.9 V.
Boxem amps use only XLR inputs.
So back to question:
1. solution; and I will try this first, and use it as go directly (without preamp) from WIIM (only RCA output) to Boxem with cables RCA/XLR, like this:
I read on several forums including ASR that people use it this way, without problem. Volume control to be done with Wiim.
2. solution; is to use preamp between Wiim and Boxem. I look at this ZP3. Why ? Because I would like to have Wiim on 100% volume (better SINAD), more inputs, VC volume control on ZP3, AND XLR out !
What I do not like is that "problem" with VC which Amirm pointed out, but I also see lot of people here using this VC without any problem.
3. solution is to go with Fosi P4, have good volume control, and loose XLR output.
Back to 2. That is why I start this question at first .
I know that measurement from review are: XLR in/XLR out - 108 dB Sinad, and RCA in/RCA out - 98 dB Sinad.
I do not have any problem to connect this 3 units. My question was about to learn how performance will, or not, change with all connection solutions:
yes I read my post and it is not quite clear...
1. At the moment I have Wiim Pro plus + tube amp PrimaLuna HP Dialogue Integrated + Spendor D9.2 (90dB/8ohm)
2. I have ordered Boxem power amp Arthur E4216/E2 , which will be delivered in aprox 10 days
. You have review by Amir for this amp, just in different case (A E4216/E2).Only different is that I have Arthur version which have 3 gain settings and better/nicer case.
Gain 12.3 / 20.3 / 26.3 dB
Minimal load below 2 Ohm
Input typeXLR
Input sensitivity 8 Ohm 2.0 / 4.0 / 9.9 V.
Boxem amps use only XLR inputs.
So back to question:
1. solution; and I will try this first, and use it as go directly (without preamp) from WIIM (only RCA output) to Boxem with cables RCA/XLR, like this:
I read on several forums including ASR that people use it this way, without problem. Volume control to be done with Wiim.
2. solution; is to use preamp between Wiim and Boxem. I look at this ZP3. Why ? Because I would like to have Wiim on 100% volume (better SINAD), more inputs, VC volume control on ZP3, AND XLR out !
What I do not like is that "problem" with VC which Amirm pointed out, but I also see lot of people here using this VC without any problem.
3. solution is to go with Fosi P4, have good volume control, and loose XLR output.
Back to 2. That is why I start this question at first .
I know that measurement from review are: XLR in/XLR out - 108 dB Sinad, and RCA in/RCA out - 98 dB Sinad.
I do not have any problem to connect this 3 units. My question was about to learn how performance will, or not, change with all connection solutions:
totti1965
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Ok,
I thought the ZP3 was a "FIXPOINT" in your setting....
We are at a hair in the complete same boat!!!
I was VERY VERY VERY close to buy the Topping B200 which has only balanced Input.
But, because I use only 6 foot as a listening distance AND using the WiiM Pro plus as a source,
my decision was for the B100, which has RCA Input or XLR Input - just as you want.
So part of my decision was to go around your question.....
: WiiM Po Plus RCA out - B100 RCA in volume setting by roon - thats it
Many of my friends from the more subjective side, say that using a Pre Amplifier is in every usecase better than dont using a Pre.... because of "Impedance matching"...
What about considring a "Top of the Top" Preamp from Topping which is Fully transparent:
or for the "subjectivist" inside of you, something like the Ladder Bach or the Ladder Chopin?
What i realy like on this iwii guy is, that he loves the Topping B200 also, so there is a bit of an "Objectivist" in him:
But your Question.... I really cant answer it, because @amirm did not measure RCA in to balanced out. Perhaps something in the middle???? Like 103 dB????
I would just consider a more expensive Preamplifier with higher SINAD because your poweramp deserves the "best". Or I would just go for Option 3 on your paper without thinking to much.
It is a pitty: you have already the 1ET6525 now - but audiophonics in France, they will send this EUR 1.800,-- gem to @amirm next month, because I asked them -
AN INTEGRETAD AMP:
www.audiophonics.fr
So, with the integrated, there is no need to rack your brains over whether an adapter or a complete preamplifier is the better solution....
It’s time that the experts in this forum put some thoughts into your really good question! I also want to lern!!!
I thought the ZP3 was a "FIXPOINT" in your setting....
We are at a hair in the complete same boat!!!
I was VERY VERY VERY close to buy the Topping B200 which has only balanced Input.
But, because I use only 6 foot as a listening distance AND using the WiiM Pro plus as a source,
my decision was for the B100, which has RCA Input or XLR Input - just as you want.
So part of my decision was to go around your question.....
: WiiM Po Plus RCA out - B100 RCA in volume setting by roon - thats it Many of my friends from the more subjective side, say that using a Pre Amplifier is in every usecase better than dont using a Pre.... because of "Impedance matching"...
What about considring a "Top of the Top" Preamp from Topping which is Fully transparent:
This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping A90 Discrete balanced preamplifier and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $599.
Announcement was supposed to be a few hours from now but one of the distributor already released it so here we go. As you can tell, there is a new design in the form of those pin-hole LEDs which I find quite elegant. Inside there is stepped relay for volume control. Of course as the name indicates, this design uses discrete transistors rather than op-amps. 39 transistors are used to accomplish that...
Announcement was supposed to be a few hours from now but one of the distributor already released it so here we go. As you can tell, there is a new design in the form of those pin-hole LEDs which I find quite elegant. Inside there is stepped relay for volume control. Of course as the name indicates, this design uses discrete transistors rather than op-amps. 39 transistors are used to accomplish that...
What i realy like on this iwii guy is, that he loves the Topping B200 also, so there is a bit of an "Objectivist" in him:
But your Question.... I really cant answer it, because @amirm did not measure RCA in to balanced out. Perhaps something in the middle???? Like 103 dB????
I would just consider a more expensive Preamplifier with higher SINAD because your poweramp deserves the "best". Or I would just go for Option 3 on your paper without thinking to much.
It is a pitty: you have already the 1ET6525 now - but audiophonics in France, they will send this EUR 1.800,-- gem to @amirm next month, because I asked them -
AN INTEGRETAD AMP:
AUDIOPHONICS HPA-INT450ET Integrated Amplifier
Audiophonics is proud to present the HPA-INT450ET. This Class D integrated amplifier relies on a pair of Purifi 1ET6525SA amplifier modules.
www.audiophonics.fr
So, with the integrated, there is no need to rack your brains over whether an adapter or a complete preamplifier is the better solution....
It’s time that the experts in this forum put some thoughts into your really good question! I also want to lern!!!
Gain staging is certainly a thing. I keep a Topping L70 around specifically for this, as a preamp/for gain staging since it is an excellent preamp. I have yet to bother ever using it as a headphone amp. You get better objective results from using a separate preamp on High gain than using a power amp on High gain because these preamps tend to provide much more, “clean gain,” than higher gain input buffers on power amps.
ninja1
Member
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2024
- Messages
- 37
- Likes
- 16
Ok,
I thought the ZP3 was a "FIXPOINT" in your setting....
We are at a hair in the complete same boat!!!
I was VERY VERY VERY close to buy the Topping B200 which has only balanced Input.
But, because I use only 6 foot as a listening distance AND using the WiiM Pro plus as a source,
my decision was for the B100, which has RCA Input or XLR Input - just as you want.
So part of my decision was to go around your question.....
Many of my friends from the more subjective side, say that using a Pre Amplifier is in every usecase better than dont using a Pre.... because of "Impedance matching"...
What about considring a "Top of the Top" Preamp from Topping which is Fully transparent:
or for the "subjectivist" inside of you, something like the Ladder Bach or the Ladder Chopin?This is a review and detailed measurements of the new Topping A90 Discrete balanced preamplifier and headphone amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $599.
Announcement was supposed to be a few hours from now but one of the distributor already released it so here we go. As you can tell, there is a new design in the form of those pin-hole LEDs which I find quite elegant. Inside there is stepped relay for volume control. Of course as the name indicates, this design uses discrete transistors rather than op-amps. 39 transistors are used to accomplish that...
What i realy like on this iwii guy is, that he loves the Topping B200 also, so there is a bit of an "Objectivist" in him:
But your Question.... I really cant answer it, because @amirm did not measure RCA in to balanced out. Perhaps something in the middle???? Like 103 dB????
I would just consider a more expensive Preamplifier with higher SINAD because your poweramp deserves the "best". Or I would just go for Option 3 on your paper without thinking to much.
It is a pitty: you have already the 1ET6525 now - but audiophonics in France, they will send this EUR 1.800,-- gem to @amirm next month, because I asked them -
AN INTEGRETAD AMP:
AUDIOPHONICS HPA-INT450ET Integrated Amplifier
Audiophonics is proud to present the HPA-INT450ET. This Class D integrated amplifier relies on a pair of Purifi 1ET6525SA amplifier modules.
So, with the integrated, there is no need to rack your brains over whether an adapter or a complete preamplifier is the better solution....
It’s time that the experts in this forum put some thoughts into your really good question! I also want to lern!!!
Thank you for info about preamps. Regarding Audiophonics integrate, I saw this, but i prefer a pure power amp as a fixed point in system.
And for a pre..I will see first my experience with wiim to Boxem directly . In the meantime i will checking preamps, with solid measurements, and some decent build quality, QC, and "good"? volume control...
Regarding measurements of possible connection ways: this is not so important but curious to know. If not 1.(Wiim to Boxem directly ) than it will be 2. (with ZP3 or another pre)
BR
totti1965
Addicted to Fun and Learning
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you won't experience any hum issues when using the RCA/XLR adapter from the WiiM Pro Plus to a true balanced preamp. With my truly limited electronics knowledge, I can't imagine that solution 2 will sound better than solution 3 (RCA/RCA WITHOUT the adapter). We really do have very closely related "problems": I have at least two preamps lying around at home, and my audiophile friends are constantly urging me to try putting a preamp between the WiiM and the Topping B100 (which I am using just in mid gain).
Unfortunately, it sounds so overwhelmingly good without a preamp that I can't imagine any further improvement, and for almost a year now, I've simply been too lazy to even try. Shame on me!
You may stand to gain less because, at least per Amir’s testing, the Medium gain and Low (unity) gain options on B100 perform almost the same. You don’t get a significant drop in performance with B100 until you switch to High gain. If you put a preamp in and then set B100 to Low gain, I don’t know if it would actually improve over simply using Medium gain on B100 on its own. If you were using room correction/EQ/DSP that, “consumed gain,” and needed B100 on High gain, then yeah, I’d suggest putting B100 back to Medium gain and sticking a preamp in before it.I'm keeping my fingers crossed that you won't experience any hum issues when using the RCA/XLR adapter from the WiiM Pro Plus to a true balanced preamp. With my truly limited electronics knowledge, I can't imagine that solution 2 will sound better than solution 3 (RCA/RCA WITHOUT the adapter). We really do have very closely related "problems": I have at least two preamps lying around at home, and my audiophile friends are constantly urging me to try putting a preamp between the WiiM and the Topping B100 (which I am using just in mid gain).
Unfortunately, it sounds so overwhelmingly good without a preamp that I can't imagine any further improvement, and for almost a year now, I've simply been too lazy to even try. Shame on me!
totti1965
Addicted to Fun and Learning
Medium gain works fine for me, even with some equalisation and setting the speakers in Roon therefore 5 dB quieter (I do that also because of beeing a bit too much afraid of "intersample overs"
).Many times, when listening to some Jazz or Classical Music which is mastered very quietly: However, I often have to turn the volume up to 87/100 or even 93/100 on Roon.
Fortunately, my self-built WaveMon 182/22 speakers are 3 dB louder than your KEF LS50 Meta, and I'm only 6 feet away from them.
However, if someone would bring me a Ladder Bach, a Topping "Top of the notch" or a Burmester Preamp or so..... I would be curious to listen. I simply like this youtube guy from iiwi Review with his subjective thoughts....
By the way: The youtube guy from NEW RECORD day can compete with him.
I like this mix between "objectivist" and "subjectivist", I myself am at most 90% an objectivist. Hopefully not too much deviation from the topic:
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