Fosi Audio ZD3 Balanced DAC Review

[ManniX]

This is the 1k Sine comparison between ZD3 and D50s, excellent

Spoiler

For some reason, HQPlayer refuses to output in DSD512.
I hadn't this issue with the D50s.

The screen is very nice but it's a pity that keeps displaying the volume level in bypass mode.
It should be able to show something else in alternative.

The pop filter seems to work quite decent but it does not remove the audio pop when changing codec with DSD.
It's more subtle but the pop it's still there.

 

[DanTheMan]

What’s weird is that my HDMI CEC worked great day one and then a few days later is when I had problems. I still haven’t figured out why.

Have you tried it on a different TV?

 

[GXAlan]

Have you tried it on a different TV?

No. I have a specific need for it with a specific Sony TV (A9G).

I think there may be some difference if you trigger the power down using
- AppleTV
- Sony remote
- Fosi physical button

It’s not consistent, so I am going to try isolating everything. I have read that short HDMI cables could be an issue and the AppleTV might be doing something odd.

 

[DanTheMan]

So far I’ve only tried mine with my Sony TV remote. So far so good, but this is what I worried about with getting a CEC device. I really have a limited understanding of the digital world. Grew up in an analog age, but I’m ready for something different. Unfortunately I’ve had a lot of issues with automated stuff in my life and really didnt want to bring that into my audio life, but here we are and I’m enjoying it. It would be nice if you got to the bottom of it and posted what the issue is. It’s probably worth reaching out to @Fosi Audio. They might be able to help.

 

[blunile]

I've been enjoying zd3 for around a month since I got it for a pretty good black friday deal. I know there are other dacs in the market that are designed "better" but my priority was a dac that I could play with.

I have replaced the switching adapter to a linear power supply which I already had. I think upgrading the stock power to anything better is the first thing that you wanna do.

I also swapped all LME49720 to discrete op amps.
LME49702s are great op amps with great sound and there is absolutely no good reason not to keep them, but then this is just a hobby so..

I also have other good quality chip and discrete op amps such as opa1612, ad8620bp, sparkos, etc. and this is how I settled for now.

I don't really feel any noticeable difference but I just like how it is for my personal preference.

I added a ground path using and soldered bypass capacitors to both V+/- rails of each op amp.
A 14 awg copper wire, 6x 1uf/63v metallized polyester caps and 6x 10uf/25v Nichicon muse bipolar caps didn't cost much at all.

Clearance with outer shell of the case is really cloase as seen in the photo, but doable.

I still can't really feel much difference after adding bypass caps but am happly with the marginal gain coming from peace of mind.

 

[GXAlan]

I still can't really feel much difference after adding bypass caps but am happly with the marginal gain coming from peace of mind.

Have you considered getting something like an E1DA Cosmos ADC? It would be neat to see what the measured differences are compared to a stock E1DA.

For example, the fancy power supply “should” only make a difference if there is mains noise or you have a voltage drop at load or there is EMI/RFI radiating from the wall wart that isn’t being reduced by the XLR output. We know from the Node Icon that AC filtering can show up on measurements.

I am still troubleshooting my HDMI CEC issues. It’s “inconsistent” in terms of staying off, although the AppleTV seems to be part of the problem. I want to make sure I get that working right before doing some op amp rolling and measuring the difference. I am heavily influenced by my experience on the phono amp, which is very different than the ZD3 but also because the MUSES op amps measured far better than their datasheets would suggest.

 

[NeLey169]

I installed the driver as instructed by fosi audio but why is it still PCM mode, or do I have to turn on DSD files to get DSD mode?

 

[blunile]

Have you considered getting something like an E1DA Cosmos ADC? It would be neat to see what the measured differences are compared to a stock E1DA.

For example, the fancy power supply “should” only make a difference if there is mains noise or you have a voltage drop at load or there is EMI/RFI radiating from the wall wart that isn’t being reduced by the XLR output. We know from the Node Icon that AC filtering can show up on measurements.

I used to use ADC of an audio interface long time ago just to see comparative differences between equipment or just to trouble-shoot my DIY projects. I looked up ASR review on E1DA Cosmos ADC, even the "B" grade, has fantastic measured performance for the price for a hobbyist like me to toy around. Thanks for the suggestion.

Your comment on using a fancy power supply is absolutely correct. ZD3 performs good enough even with the stock switching power supply. But going with a LPS with obviously less ripple and noise is sweet marginal gain that is easy to get. It might not be significant by itself, then when this kind of small marginal gains accumulated together, it could be a different story. By the way, I use a LPS simply because I already had one.

 

[GXAlan]

I used to use ADC of an audio interface long time ago just to see comparative differences between equipment or just to trouble-shoot my DIY projects. I looked up ASR review on E1DA Cosmos ADC, even the "B" grade, has fantastic measured performance for the price for a hobbyist like me to toy around. Thanks for the suggestion.

For what it’s worth, I bought my Grade A one from Audiophonics in France and had it shipped to the U.S. without issue. It’s basically a superb tool except for a bit of DC offset. Everything you see in my signature is measured with the E1DA.

But going with a LPS with obviously less ripple and noise is sweet marginal gain that is easy to get. It might not be significant by itself, then when this kind of small marginal gains accumulated together, it could be a different story.

No doubt. What I wonder is if the op amps offer a bigger difference. Between buying a LPS versus buying an op-amp, I am tempted to think the op amp is a better buy.

I don’t think you beat the transparency, but the fact that I prefer my Luxman phono over the Parks Puffin, which clearly means what transparency is not critical, and I like the Luxman phono combined with the Parks Puffin running Magic in line level mode might suggest that whatever added distortion or non linearity the op amp rolling generated is euphonic.

 

[blunile]

I don’t think you beat the transparency, but the fact that I prefer my Luxman phono over the Parks Puffin, which clearly means what transparency is not critical, and I like the Luxman phono combined with the Parks Puffin running Magic in line level mode might suggest that whatever added distortion or non linearity the op amp rolling generated is euphonic.

I can relate to your experience. Sometimes I also face dilema between options with measured linearity vs. euphoric distortion.

 

[DanTheMan]

Well, my ZD3 does turn back on after about 30 minutes of being off when my Sony TV turns it off through the HDMI connection. If you change inputs and turn it off, it doesn’t exhibit this behavior. @Fosi Audio, is there a way to correct this?

 

[GXAlan]

Well, my ZD3 does turn back on after about 30 minutes of being off when my Sony TV turns it off through the HDMI connection. If you change inputs and turn if off, it doesn’t exhibit this behavior. @Fosi Audio, is there a way to correct this?

It’s definitely inconsistent. I have found that the Apple TV may be playing a role. If I just have my Sony TV and I just have the ZD3 it seems to be OK.

I also swapped my HDMI cable on the chance that it was too short. Fosi asked me to send them a video, but the problem is that it’s inconsistent. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it powers on 30 seconds later. Sometimes it powers on overnight.

I asked Fosi support if the unit looks exclusively for a HDMI wake command or if it’s looking for a PCM signal. No reply yet.

 

[ManniX]

I installed the driver as instructed by fosi audio but why is it still PCM mode, or do I have to turn on DSD files to get DSD mode?

Which version of foobar2000 and plugins are you using?

I also swapped my HDMI cable on the chance that it was too short. Fosi asked me to send them a video, but the problem is that it’s inconsistent. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it powers on 30 seconds later. Sometimes it powers on overnight.

Did you try adding a simple repeater/splitter between the TV and DAC?
The behavior looks like a fake hot-plug detection when the TV goes in deep standby.
Try also to play with CEC settings on the TV but I doubt they use CEC to switch power, it's highly unreliable.

 

[NeLey169]

Which version of foobar2000 and plugins are you using?



Did you try adding a simple repeater/splitter between the TV and DAC?
The behavior looks like a fake hot-plug detection when the TV goes in deep standby.
Try also to play with CEC settings on the TV but I doubt they use CEC to switch power, it's highly unreliable.

 

[ManniX]

View attachment 424999

View attachment 425001

You need to use the ASIO+DSD plugin instead of ASIO for DVD Native playback:

Super Audio CD Decoder - Browse /foo_out_asio+dsd at SourceForge.net

Super Audio CD Decoder input plugin for foobar2000. Decoder is capable of playing back Super Audio CD ISO images, DSDIFF, DSF and DSD WavPack files.…

sourceforge.net

Yes you also need DSD files or install the DSD Processor, from the same SACD Decoder repo above, and enable PCM conversion to DSD via the DSP Manager.

If you convert also the DSD formats you get volume control as well.

 

[GXAlan]

Did you try adding a simple repeater/splitter between the TV and DAC?
The behavior looks like a fake hot-plug detection when the TV goes in deep standby.
Try also to play with CEC settings on the TV but I doubt they use CEC to switch power, it's highly unreliable.

CEC works 1000000% of the time when your audio equipment is Sonos, Sony AVR, Denon/Marantz AVR, or Yamaha AVR. Input switching, power on and off, volume control, the works.

It’s only unreliable with the ZD3…

I am trying to figure out if the ZD3 is looking for a HDMI signal to come out of standby or the formal wake command. All of the HDMI CEC devices are listening on the same pin.

CEC-O-MATIC

Your tool to understand the HDMI-CEC messages exchanged between your HDMI devices

www.cec-o-matic.com

When you issue the standby byte code, everyone listening should go into standby.

In theory, the power on should involve the TV powering on and then issuing an audio system power on. I wonder if the Fosi is listening for data on the CEC bus to power on as opposed to listening for a clear power on command addressed to the audio system. The Apple TV may be pulling the CEC bus intermittently without issuing power commands, but this is misinterpreted by the Fosi. What I don’t understand is that sometimes the Fosi will power on by itself and not trigger anything else and there are times the Fosi will power on and also power on the television.

 

[ManniX]

CEC works 1000000% of the time when your audio equipment is Sonos, Sony AVR, Denon/Marantz AVR, or Yamaha AVR. Input switching, power on and off, volume control, the works.

I don't share your trust in CEC at all, has been a disaster since day one for me
For audio only and between premium brands it's easier but for STBs it's issue n.2 after WiFi.
It's a weak protocol and not certifiable.
But yes indeed, you can do a decent implementation, at least like the others, with some experience.
It seems Fosi didn't spent enough time testing and researching.

I am trying to figure out if the ZD3 is looking for a HDMI signal to come out of standby or the formal wake command. All of the HDMI CEC devices are listening on the same pin.

If I have time this weekend, I can try to check it out.
I have an Astro VA-1842 HDMI Analyzer just here and I think it has the CEC commands toolbox.

 

[GXAlan]

I don't share your trust in CEC at all, has been a disaster since day one for me

I found it buggy pre ARC. It was part of hdmi 1.0 but it was hdmi 1.4 or so when it started to work reliably.

In the 4k era, I have found perfection with Samsung/Sony TVs, the audio products I mentioned, and Pioneer/Panasonic/Sony optical disc players.

There are definitely more issues with Vizio TVs and non mainstream brands like WiiM and Fosi.

Admittedly, I just use OTA ATSC and streaming (internal apps, NVIDIA shield, AppleTV) so I don’t know about STB compatibility.

It seems Fosi didn't spent enough time testing and researching.

+1. I wonder if there is just middleware that is needed or a different flag for power on.

If I have time this weekend, I can try to check it out.
I have an Astro VA-1842 HDMI Analyzer just here and I think it has the CEC commands toolbox.

Thanks in advance!

 

[NeLey169]

You need to use the ASIO+DSD plugin instead of ASIO for DVD Native playback:

Super Audio CD Decoder - Browse /foo_out_asio+dsd at SourceForge.net

Super Audio CD Decoder input plugin for foobar2000. Decoder is capable of playing back Super Audio CD ISO images, DSDIFF, DSF and DSD WavPack files.…

sourceforge.net

Yes you also need DSD files or install the DSD Processor, from the same SACD Decoder repo above, and enable PCM conversion to DSD via the DSP Manager.

If you convert also the DSD formats you get volume control as well.

I installed it exactly as Fosi instructed in the attached file.

Maybe because i play .flac file so it will be PCM

 

[ManniX]

I installed it exactly as Fosi instructed in the attached file.

Maybe because i play .flac file so it will be PCM

Then you should be fine with this setup, you can play bit-perfect anything and DSD natively.
But you don't get software volume control on DSD.

I prefer to convert everything to DSD256 and bypass the DAC volume control, sounds better to me.