Fosi Audio V3 op-amp rolling, has anyone tried it? Snake oil? Or are there actual differences?

[solderdude]

As always what is missing is - the listening tests. What individual people hear - is what they hear.

of course, but that is not the problem. What one hears is what one hears. The problem lies in HOW to properly test (using the ears) under equal circumstances.

For instance... swapping op-amps (knowing what's in there) and comparing from memory is almost guaranteed to hear differences. Regardless if the differences are caused by the different op-amp or from other causes.
The ONLY valid way, if one REALLY wants to know, is to directly, level matched and properly controlled and statistically valid comparison between 1 amp with original op-amps and with 'upgraded' op-amps.

Let's face it... proper testing is a LOT of work and very time consuming and even exhausting. NO V3 owner is ever going to do that. Instead most people that believe in op-amp rolling just put in a more expensive op-amp or a recommended one on the premise that it'll sound 'better' and give it a listen. They will certainly like it and hear an improvement (it is rare to see people preferring the original op-amp). Maybe they even put back the original ones in to 'verify' it sounds less good than the new (expensive) one they put in and quickly change it out again for the newer one and voila... there is the good sound again.

That's how it works. The fact that no controls are used is what most ASR folks have issues with. Most of them may have never done extensive and properly controlled blind tests themselves by the way.

To insult what people hear and tell them they are deluded etc. etc. actually says a lot of those who repeatedly make these insulting comments.

I understand that's how it 'feels' when someone 'reports' they (clearly) hear differences.
However, that works both ways. People that actually know about proper testing and 'op-amp' sound are equally insulted by folks insisting they have it wrong.

No one in their right minds would deny that measurements reveal the outcome of the chosen layout and components and the mentality of the teams that created the piece of equipment.

Measurements say nothing about the layout and components nor the mentality of the team(s) or individual(s) that created the product.
Measurements (when done correctly and all required ones are made) can say everything about technical performance, specifications and signal fidelity.
It does not say ANYTHING about how someone 'hears' or 'perceives' it at home, on their gear, in their listening conditions with their transducers.

The fact remains that the important end point is - does the individual like what they hear.

Yep, your only valid point so far. This, however, has no direct relation to technical aspects.

This is as always defined by the sum total of that individual's life experience/cultural brainwashing For some time now a lot of people have damaged the ability of their pathway to hear - their ears, to transmit an accurate route to the brain and it's ability to provide even remotely something resembling the music that entered the aural pathway.

What a strange description of 'hearing'. It seems your reasoning is heading down south here.

Note: The distortion and frequency response is determined solely by the TPA3255 + filtering + power supply. The performance of the op-amp (in x -1 gain mode) is vastly exceeding that of the following class-D stage.

 

[deano454]

I've been designing with op-amps my whole career. I would hesitate to just toss in another op-amp if I had a working design. I'd certainly do extensive testing afterwards. Doing that with someone else's design is even more fraught, especially with high-speed op-amps. It may be fun and inexpensive, but:

1. I doubt you'll make an actual improvement, and
2. You may create an oscillator.

But you won't burn down the house or harm anyone. So knock yourself silly.

The designer Fosi is actually recommending opamp rolling ! So perhaps they built it for the 5553 or whatever the number was to a price point but then encouraged people to try Sparko et all to elevate the sound. Unfortunately my ears can't detect measurements so I tend to listen to something I've changed the opamp in . Recently did it with Burson in a Sony TC-K555esx Cassette Deck and it sounded way way better. I then tried listening to its measurements but failed again .

 

[JSmith]

The designer Fosi is actually recommending opamp rolling !

Something manufacturers should not be doing... encouraging customers to open a device and fiddle around.

So perhaps they built it for the 5553 or whatever the number was to a price point but then encouraged people to try Sparko et all to elevate the sound.

No, that's not the way it works.

I then tried listening to its measurements

Huh?


JSmith

 

[deano454]

Something manufacturers should not be doing... encouraging customers to open a device and fiddle around.

No, that's not the way it works.

Huh?


JSmith

Exactly you can't listen to the measurements that's what I was trying to say . The manufacturer said try swapping opamps I intend to , I'll try some Burson first see if it alters the sound for better or for worse. I believe orientating them upwards helps with heat dissipation as well

 

[JSmith]

The manufacturer said try swapping opamps I intend to , I'll try some Burson first see if it alters the sound for better or for worse.

You won't be able to tell this way, as echoic memory is 5s at best.

In effect you need two of the same devices, one running each opamp, level matched and compared without peeking... or capture using an ADC etc.


JSmith

 

[Rick63]

I wonder if someone swaps opamps and then their unit fails under warranty if they'd still honor the warranty? I would expect them to given that they encourage it.

Sorry if this has already been brought up.

 

[burkm]

Manufacturers enjoy every opportunity to make additional money. That seems the only reason, why there are those offers...

Amir tried to verify those claims doing a several replacements, but most OPAMP changes worsened the measured results, a few just had same responses.
He couldn't detect any changes to the better by listening for those exchanged OPAMPs, although he tried hard to detect any.

Most listeners did favor those replacements "subjectively", but none could do better or prove this to us, although lots of arguments seem to speak otherwise.
The same arguments were repeatedly stated without any objective prove...

 

[Beave]

The designer Fosi is actually recommending opamp rolling ! So perhaps they built it for the 5553 or whatever the number was to a price point but then encouraged people to try Sparko et all to elevate the sound. Unfortunately my ears can't detect measurements so I tend to listen to something I've changed the opamp in . Recently did it with Burson in a Sony TC-K555esx Cassette Deck and it sounded way way better. I then tried listening to its measurements but failed again .

So you listened to something, turned it off, opened it up, swapped the op amps, set it back up, turned it back on, listened again....

and you were able to reliably compare how it sounds after the op amp swap compared to how it sounded before the op amp swap?

That's amazing, because no human has such precise auditory memory.

 

[GGroch]

The designer Fosi is actually recommending opamp rolling ! So perhaps they built it for the 5553 or whatever the number was to a price point but then encouraged people to try Sparko et all to elevate the sound.

Could be, but until internal documents leak their reasons are a guess. Guessing is fun.

My guess: Consumer products company Fosi employs great electronics engineers, but even more ad men, marketers, and sales managers.. Their job: sell the most stuff for the most money. Check this offering linked from the V3 product page. Add $2 op amp sockets to the $90 V3 and some customers will spend another $27, $53, or $165 on op amps. Adding sockets sells more V3 amps even to customers who do not buy Op Amps from Fosi. Type "Fosi V3 Op Amp Upgrade" in YouTube Search to find over 400,000 views and dozens of videos for customers looking for something fun to do with their amp. Nothing wrong with this. All consumer companies do it.

Unfortunately my ears can't detect measurements so I tend to listen to something I've changed the opamp in . Recently did it with Burson in a Sony TC-K555esx Cassette Deck and it sounded way way better. I then tried listening to its measurements but failed again .

Yep, we cannot detect measurements, we also cannot detect changes in the amps output that are too tiny to be measured. Instead, our brains make a best guess prediction of how the sound probably changes when we spend $$ on op amps and 20 minutes installing them. It just makes sense the effort changes something...so that is what we hear. Its how human perception works. Best guesses for hundreds of thousands of years kept our ancestors from becoming grizzly bear food.

 

[solderdude]

One cannot convince people that are already convinced.

No matter what evidence one can present on the contrary.
They heard an improvement so there IS one... undeniably.

There is a demand for 'op-amp rolling' by the public and brands like Fosi (there are plenty of other brands too) offer this 'option'.
Usually only op-amps being used in places that can do little harm (and thus offer no benefit either).

It's a question of demand and supply and as a manufacturer (who buys in large quantities for bulk prices) can sell those 'upgrade' parts (who doesn't want an upgrade as it never seems to be a downgrade) can make quite a bit of extra money this way given the margin they take on these parts.
It's a business model and people gladly buy into the hype.
Fortunately there is such a thing as perception bias and this saves the day for the 'audio upgrade' world.

 

[JSmith]

A manufacturer that offers such an "upgrade", referring to imagined improvements in the audio output, may as well say "we built a substandard product that needs extra upgrades for optimal performance"... to me this is a red flag, not to buy from such a company.


JSmith

 

[burkm]

@solderdude
No matter, what You say: Human perception for our hearing is not send directly to the brain but filtered by our brain 100%. This might cause all sorts of individual and personal "imaginations" as our brain imagines a lot in that process, as has been proven lots of times in the past
Everyone should choose what he likes best but because our hearing and brain can't be "objectivised" the outcome is always based on ones "imagination".
This might cause other to follow this "make believe" (a group phenomenon) but never has it been proven to exist in reality

 

[GGroch]

A manufacturer that offers such an "upgrade", referring to imagined improvements in the audio output, may as well say "we built a substandard product that needs extra upgrades for optimal performance"... to me this is a red flag, not to buy from such a company.

I think they are not saying this. They are saying "This SKU is targeted to audiophile hobbyists and we think more of them view Op Amp swapping as a good or harmless option than think it's silly or indicates we use substandard parts."

3e Audio is about as ASR centric as it gets, yet they put a socket on the board and a hole in the chassis.

Every consumer company makes these compromises to some extent, right?

 

[JSmith]

3e Audio is about as ASR centric as it gets, yet they put a socket on the board and a hole in the chassis.

Yep, yet they don't go on about using a certain opamp for a specific genre of music like some.


JSmith

 

[burkm]

...Then those who do it are just spending a lot of money for "nothing", thinking that this "improvement" might enhance their listening experience. The manufacturer (Fosi Audio) is just rubbing its hands because of that additional margin their product gets. They actually don't care about Your listening experience but about their additional "income" this generates...

 

[GGroch]

.... The manufacturer (Fosi Audio) .... actually don't care about Your listening experience but about their additional "income" this generates...

OTOH, for many people it does improve their listening experience. Measuring dopamine could objectively prove it. What it does not improve is the accuracy of the sound waves their speakers emit.

Of course, visiting ASR and drinking Amir's measurement Kool-Aid can bring the experience crashing down.

Then, a perfect PFFB implementation graph and a golfing panther improves their listening experience

 

[MaxwellsEq]

...Then those who do it are just spending a lot of money for "nothing", thinking that this "improvement" might enhance their listening experience

You are missing the point. Swapping op-amps at best makes no change to the sound but often makes the sound worse. Sockets are a bad idea in high quality circuits if you want to minimise noise and distortion.

That doesn't mean people are not improving their listening experience. What they hear is the same or worse, but their brain tells them it's better, because of biases.

 

[burkm]

The Problem is, that in reality (and by measurements) nothing really changes, but people "imagine" by their own decision an improvement of experienced sound.
If one tries to "objectively" certify those results, they usually "fail". None of all those measurements really don't show any real changes, some are even worse than before. Thus their claims cannot be taken as valid, because "imagination" is not something others can validly follow.

 

[antcollinet]

Measuring dopamine could objectively prove it

Not sure it could.

On the other hand it is also known that the percieved benefit (because there is nothing real to create it) is not stable. It does not last. Once the novelty of having "played" with op amp swapping has worn off then the benefit also fades. Or it only lasts until the next tweak captures the tweakers interest, and they start playing with that bit of nonsense.

 

[Joe Smith]

Fosi I would say is the furthest out on the plank of being a very consumer-driven marketing audio company. They blend making pretty good devices with a lot of research to see what the people who buy audio gear think they want, then design accordingly. And they are trying to stay ahead of their direct competitors and differentiate themselves by doing so. But Aiyima, SMSL, 3e, Topping, others...all play pretty much in that same ballpark. Case in point is the direct cooling in the new BT20a MAX amp. A lot of people indicated that even more cooling would be good, and "poof" now we have a 3255- based amp that has passive cooling and a fan (whether it needs it or not). And now a lot of people are dumping on the amp because it has the fan inside.

With the op-amps, I think Fosi knew that if they didn't offer sockets, other makers would, and they'd lose sales. Do they know it's pointless? I imagine they do, but they are happy to take the money from tweakers. My attitude is, someone can offer me Kool-Aid, but I don't have to drink it. I like Fosi's gear overall, think it's a good value and pretty well made, so if they want to make extra money from some people, to quote Elliot Gould as Phillip Marlowe, "it's all right with me."