Forgive me, state of my audio endeavors (DAC) and questions on if I need to shift equipment.

[TheBrandon]

I will be out right honest as I am not very impressed with my EL DAC. I see what it measure but mine is definitely lacking for what I am looking for. Windows 10 seems to be a bit buggy with audio in general (well reported) but there has to be a series of events that take place to get optimal audio out of my current setup. My PC is built specifically for gaming and does not contain a lot of non essentials in regards to software. Onboard audio is disabled in the BIOS. EL DAC runs off a USB controller nothing else is tied too so its solo. When booting, Win 10 launches to desktop. I have all audio devices disabled (things like Nvidia's and Monitor) I then have to power on my DAC, followed by my AMP. Finally I have to volume up (in Windows than I roll down to 98). After that the DAC performs as well as I would expect it. Not in this order, audio is lower and missing the fine resolve while in an application.

I know some of this is taboo. I have flat out questioned my hearing in some regards but test show I am good all the way to 18000khz in both ears so I am not imagining the differences in audio I hear when the DAC is working as expected or not or the differences between devices. I've tested on multiple audio hardware and sources, software, songs, and games. I've tended to think this is more Windows related however, IT is my profession and I am senior management for one the largest employers for a major metro area so I am also inclined to think I know what I am doing here but been doing this type of work for decades I am way past the "not possible" attitude because that always comes back to bite you. So I'm very open to any thing people have to add. Every option that should be touched at the OS level is done. Drivers are all good to go. (I build my machines with meticulous attention to each and every part.) I am not bypassing Windows sound so maybe that is something I need to look at.

Here is where I am at. The EL DAC seems to look really good in terms of numbers. I've read the countless threads about DAC's not mattering so long as its a good one and you don't hear a difference. I'm not looking to go down a rabbit hole for no gains if most believe this is truly the case. I've read the same things regarding AMPs and that may make more difference or not. Seems like it just depends who you ask.

I volume matched each component (UMIK 1 and REW) and ran some test. The big one was simply volume matching and comparing to various dacs. Compared to my motherboards AC1220-VB and ESS 9118 Sabre DAC you'll pass a double blind 100 times in a row. Testing AV receiver, there is beyond a shadow of a doubt differences as well that are extremely easy to pick up.

In all instances, the EL DAC outperforms however ironically with one receiver in general (lawd don't let me get struck down with this comment) I can tell the sound stage is wider. I have read the comments that this shouldn't be possible and all of that so I apologize. My intention is not to stir the pot but simply post where I am at with this based on my hearing, environment after level balancing. One of the test I used for sound stage is a game that has an audio implementation that is not conventional. Audio travels in a straight line to player but not through walls unless there is a hole, or door, window. In one instance I go to a spot that has as speaker playing a classical song and I listen for enemy movement (they are in the same spot) and I am able to easily gauge the sound stage and imaging with this to compare. I could drop PUBG or BF just the same but previous example is brutally honest. I'm talking shooting someone through a wall precise or knowing exactly where someone is above or below.

So, what are everyone's thoughts with this? Will I see improvements over EL DAC if I moved to something like the DX7 Pro or something else? Is it possible whatever one of my receivers is doing its just something tainted perhaps that I prefer that makes it seem like a larger sound stage?

My goal is to get consistent and clean as possible sound with clarity. If I already have something that will do this and there is no point moving on that is good too. My go to is JDS Labs, JDS Atom to my main headphones, HD 800 S and the Beyerdynamics T1 version 2. Considering DX7 Pro (or any other options those may suggest).

Thoughts?

 

[Wes]

you can always try another DAC from Amazon, etc. that can be returned if a DBT shows no differences

a mac mini (refurbished) and iTunes can solve a lot of Windows problems...

 

[TheBrandon]

you can always try another DAC from Amazon, etc. that can be returned if a DBT shows no differences

a mac mini (refurbished) and iTunes can solve a lot of Windows problems...

Hate doing that but may make sense here. I love my MACs and it has its strengths but high end gaming isn’t one of them lol.

 

[flipflop]

Okay, so you want better sound quality and for some reason want to replace your DAC. That's not the way to go.
What you want to do is install Equalizer APO and the Peace interface, download this file and place it in X:\Program Files\EqualizerAPO\config. You can load it from the bottom left corner of Peace.
If you're not happy with the result, get better speakers or headphones.

 

[TheBrandon]

Okay, so you want better sound quality and for some reason want to replace your DAC. That's not the way to go.
What you want to do is install Equalizer APO and the Peace interface, download this file and place it in X:\Program Files\EqualizerAPO\config. You can load it from the bottom left corner of Peace.
If you're not happy with the result, get better speakers or headphones.

I have both setup and tried a few different profiles/settings. I’ll have a look at the file though to see what that is and give it a go. Thanks!!

 

[k3nb5t]

I'm not certain I understand your issue. You are saying the El Dac is producing an inferior sound stage in certain situations? Compared to which other device? Are the connection methods to your PC the same?

I've not encountered the type of issue you are experiencing, but I have found gaming to produce strange results with some audio devices. I have experienced issues with pops, clicks, gaps and other strange behaviors while gaming. One thing I have used in the past to help eliminate driver issues is to use the onboard sound card with digital out (S/PDIF or Toslink) to the DAC and see if you can tell a difference. Motherboards typically include RealTek interfaces, for which drivers are solid and prolific. This way, you basically use the RealTek drivers with your existing DAC and can eliminate driver issues this way.

Unrelated: why use 98% volume? My understanding is that 100% (unity) provides the ideal path through the Windows audio system.

 

[TheBrandon]

I'm not certain I understand your issue. You are saying the El Dac is producing an inferior sound stage in certain situations? Compared to which other device? Are the connection methods to your PC the same?

I've not encountered the type of issue you are experiencing, but I have found gaming to produce strange results with some audio devices. I have experienced issues with pops, clicks, gaps and other strange behaviors while gaming. One thing I have used in the past to help eliminate driver issues is to use the onboard sound card with digital out (S/PDIF or Toslink) to the DAC and see if you can tell a difference. Motherboards typically include RealTek interfaces, for which drivers are solid and prolific. This way, you basically use the RealTek drivers with your existing DAC and can eliminate driver issues this way.

Unrelated: why use 98% volume? My understanding is that 100% (unity) provides the ideal path through the Windows audio system.

Sorry about the lack of clarity. Regarding the sound stage comment, what I am saying is I could clearly hear a difference in sound stage between the various devices I was testing. That comment is really an aside and less about the science and maybe more about something being wrong or defective or whatever. It's just what I am hearing rather that is possible scientifically or not. I had not thought of using an optical cable to DAC. That is a great idea. From JDS Labs, "Optical and coax modes mode achieve slightly better THD than USB mode. Jitter is more ideal in USB mode, as expected from comparison to an S/PDIF signal. All results exceed our expectations for audible transparency." maybe there will be improvements in other places.

When you ran through your digital out, and was able to eliminate potential drivers issues, with issues, did you just keep it this way or move to another DAC? I had some reservations on potentially having multiple interference's. RealTek has their own EQ and my thought process was to eliminate any "man in the middle" by disabling onboard in Bios and software. Just make sure nothing would influence the audio.

Fortunately no pops or anything of that nature. What I am hearing is on some days everything is good and acceptable but far from what it should be. Other days, audio queues are dull and lifeless. It was enough to make me question my hearing or rather or not I was congested that day with allergies or mentally fatigued enough my brain just couldn't resolve the detail or focus at all. So its noticeable, very. It's not bad though. To go a step further, when I first ran my Atom off my board it still felt like it needed almost maxed in high gain with my T1's (600ohm) and my HD 800 S 12 o'clock or higher in high gain. I do not believe I am having driver issue as I moved to a completely separate controller and still experiencing the strange or inconsistent behavior in clarity (event log reports nothing out of the ordinary). I did test with RealTek as my board runs this (Gigabyte Master X570 with ESS chip) but I am pretty pumped to try without the USB.

Spoiler: Various details

Best way to describe is at times when its working as I would expect, ambient audio is clear and immersive and full. Its like everything is far more up front and in your head with great separation. When its off, its cloudy\murky\not near as resolved. I reached out to JDS regarding my Sennheiser 660S (150ohm). In that instance I ran RealTek ALC1220-VB ESS Sabre9118 DAC with audio maxed in Windows to 3.5mm RCA to Atom. Even with maxed volume in Windows and high gain the audio comes as lifeless, dull, and just under powered. I switched to my front 3.5mm and got a 5db boost in SPL around 80 maxed. With better results from my iPhone 11 Pro to Amp, it was determined the amp was just getting weak signal from my DAC (needing 2VRMS for optimal output power). Fast forward to El Dac, the output seems inconsistent (amplifier issue?) but so does the resolution when volume is matched. I emailed Beyerdynamic regarding my T1s. They came back that I may want to try other high end amplifiers.

EL DAC is not made any more. My atom has seemed off since day 1. My original thought process was grab the DX7 Pro and try this to eliminate a potential issue with the amp or drivers of the dac.

I will play around with Optical as well as FlipFlop file today. Thanks everyone for your patience and advice!!

 

[Jimbob54]

What is it that you are playing? Files on the pc? Streaming app?

Which music software? Using exclusive mode for said player?

 

[TheBrandon]

What is it that you are playing? Files on the pc? Streaming app?

Which music software? Using exclusive mode for said player?

Groove for music. No real complaints here. Source are .mp3 I believe at 320kbps but don't quote me on that. No real complaints listening to music but I typically don't spend much time listening to music. No changes to exclusive mode settings for Groove.

I did play with Windows Audio Exclusive Mode though for the sound settings.

Regarding music, there is a significant difference in spl between Groove and lets say a game I am in. For example, if I have Windows volume to 100 and my amplifier to 12 o'clock and the Grove Music app maxed it would not be cool on the ears at all. Same thing with Youtube. In game, same settings, Windows 100, 12 o'clock on amp, in game volume maxed this does not seem to have the same level of volume or anywhere close if I recall correctly. I did not measure this though so it could be how much more dynamic an audio track is vs what is happening in game. I just know with the music I'd have to cut the application volume in half at least.

All games are on a dedicated PCIe 4.0 1tb nvme. I have 3 of these drives with the OS on a dedicated drive with the other for capture\drivers\sys tools\limited software. Each drive test around 4400-5000 read\write.

 

[k3nb5t]

When you ran through your digital out, and was able to eliminate potential drivers issues, with issues, did you just keep it this way or move to another DAC? I had some reservations on potentially having multiple interference's. RealTek has their own EQ and my thought process was to eliminate any "man in the middle" by disabling onboard in Bios and software. Just make sure nothing would influence the audio.

I ran it that way for some time. The only difference I ran into was format support. The RealTek had a smaller sample rate selection and no DSD support. Neither was an issue for me. At the time, Microsoft had not yet released their generic UAC2 driver (it came with Windows 10 Creator's Update, IIRC). When this came out, I dropped the manufacturer's driver in favor of the Microsoft one and didn't encounter any more issues. I have since switched to a different DAC, but for other reasons.

I'm not sure if you've encountered this before, but you may also want to ensure that Windows audio enhancements are disabled. Here's a short guide that I found with a quick google search. On my PC, this option appears for some devices, but not others. This is likely related to the driver's reported capabilities, so you may or may not see the option.

Best way to describe is at times when its working as I would expect, ambient audio is clear and immersive and full. Its like everything is far more up front and in your head with great separation. When its off, its cloudy\murky\not near as resolved. I reached out to JDS regarding my Sennheiser 660S (150ohm). In that instance I ran RealTek ALC1220-VB ESS Sabre9118 DAC with audio maxed in Windows to 3.5mm RCA to Atom. Even with maxed volume in Windows and high gain the audio comes as lifeless, dull, and just under powered. I switched to my front 3.5mm and got a 5db boost in SPL around 80 maxed. With better results from my iPhone 11 Pro to Amp, it was determined the amp was just getting weak signal from my DAC (needing 2VRMS for optimal output power). Fast forward to El Dac, the output seems inconsistent (amplifier issue?) but so does the resolution when volume is matched. I emailed Beyerdynamic regarding my T1s. They came back that I may want to try other high end amplifiers.

With such high impedance headphones, it's no surprise that you are having volume issues with the built-in controller. However, the Atom should have no issue driving them to whatever volume you like. The front panel is typically a headphone out. You'll want to ensure you are using line out when connecting an amplifier like the Atom. Although, that is irrelevant if you are using an external DAC as well.

Regarding music, there is a significant difference in spl between Groove and lets say a game I am in. For example, if I have Windows volume to 100 and my amplifier to 12 o'clock and the Grove Music app maxed it would not be cool on the ears at all. Same thing with Youtube. In game, same settings, Windows 100, 12 o'clock on amp, in game volume maxed this does not seem to have the same level of volume or anywhere close if I recall correctly. I did not measure this though so it could be how much more dynamic an audio track is vs what is happening in game. I just know with the music I'd have to cut the application volume in half at least.

This is not unusual, and does not indicate a problem. Most modern music players (and especially streaming services) offer volume normalization to help smooth the transition between tracks. Games have no such feature and can be just about anywhere on the loudness spectrum. I find most games to be around the same volume, but there are always outliers. I make sure to lower the in-game volume for those that are too loud, rather than using global volume control. This results in fewer surprises

I think that's about all I've got to offer here. Let us know how your testing turns out.

EDIT: grammar