The big advantage of a country like Italy that has rules about its dishes is that when you order something in a restaurant, you know what you're going to get, because there is one and only one correct way to make it. If you order something in the US, it's a crap shoot. I really feel for the people with food allergies, as any given ingredient may or not be present in a dish depending on the whims of the chef at that establishment.
-
WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Food: didn't know Italians were so picky about their carbonara!
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Andretti60
Active Member
There is only one problem with that: Italians don’t like “rules”. Traffic lights and road lanes for example are only “suggestions”.
Like in any country, in Italy you find the whole spectrum of restaurants, from the gourmet to the crapshoot.
To make good and complicated dishes takes time (for example risotto, at least twenty minutes) restaurants with very fast turnout can’t afford that and therefore have to take shortcuts.
We were big fans of Superior pasta in the Italian Market area of Philadelphia. Unfortunately they closed in the middle of Covid (after 73 years :-( ). I think the last time we bought from them was the previous x-mas. Baltimore is too close to nother with mail ordering, and too far to drive unless I am up that way for work. here is a relatively new fresh pasta company in the DC area, but you have to go to farmers markets that are not very close by to buy it. Nothing like taking 1-1/2 hours and $10 in gas to buy $7.50 worth of pasta
Never think of looking for stuff like this on Amazon; I'll have to give it a shot.
But if you drive up to Baltimore, you can combine a stop at Vaccaro's for cannoli.We were big fans of Superior pasta in the Italian Market area of Philadelphia. Unfortunately they closed in the middle of Covid (after 73 years :-( ). I think the last time we bought from them was the previous x-mas. Baltimore is too close to nother with mail ordering, and too far to drive unless I am up that way for work. here is a relatively new fresh pasta company in the DC area, but you have to go to farmers markets that are not very close by to buy it. Nothing like taking 1-1/2 hours and $10 in gas to buy $7.50 worth of pasta
Andretti60
Active Member
Look for De Cecco, it is a very good Italian dry pasta, away much better than Barilla, that is my everyday pasta.
For gourmet pasta I suggest Rustichella di Abruzzo, more expensive but worth the money, I use it for special events (that includes plain weekends)
Keith_W
Major Contributor
I was been quite keen to try this brand of pasta which is featured in all the Italia Squisita videos. Obviously there is some kind of commercial relationship between them and Italia Squisita. They are part of a new movement in Italian pasta which is "single grain" pasta, usually using heritage grains or rather strange grains. The selection is rather poor in Australia, so I have only tried one. This particular pasta uses a type of durum grain called "Capelli" and its taste is so subtle that you can really only taste it if you have the simplest pasta preparation. With mine I made a penne and kale pasta (tear kale into shreds, and cook it together with the pasta. Gently saute a garlic clove in olive oil with some chilli then remove the garlic clove. Drain kale and pasta and toss with the sauce). Yes it does have some flavour which you don't get with something like Barilla, but what is really noticeable is the texture. It has a LOT of bite and felt grainy in the mouth, as if all the grains were hydrated unevenly. This happened even with more extended cooking time. It is not unpleasant, but it's not really what you expect when you have pasta. It might be a characteristic of this particular grain. I would be curious to try some of their other pastas though.
I also use Rustichella d'Abruzzo (after it was featured in a Heston Blumenthal video where he called it the best pasta in the world) and I agree it is fantastic. Again, it has a subtle flavour which is overwhelmed by any stronger sauce, but at least its texture is more agreeable. I never thought the rough texture of the bronze dies they use to extrude the pasta would be noticeable in the mouth, but it is - especially when you slurp a spaghetti.
20 years ago it was worth it. Starting about 15 years ago, much less so. They used to have great pignolis, etc. Then it was like they turned everything over to high schoolers and the quality nose-dived. We had to start ordering cookies from Termini Bros in Philly. It was not worth trekking up to Baltimore for cannoli, cookies, gelato, etc. after a couple disappointing visits. I can get some pretty good cannoli at a restaurant about a mile away that is owned/ run by a family from Sicily. Cookies and gelati are another story though.
theREALdotnet
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2022
- Messages
- 1,437
- Likes
- 2,467
theREALdotnet
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2022
- Messages
- 1,437
- Likes
- 2,467
It didn’t mention either of these on the pack.As long as you didn’t use garlic or olive oil you’re good.
That said, you should try my Beef Wellington:
That's very sad. Another part of the Baltimore Legacy of Loss.
Two cents from an italian addicted to pasta. You can't find Rustichella d'Abbruzzo in stores in Italy, I think is a brand with direct distribution to big restaurants (they patented spaghetti that are done in 1:30, silly) or companies and for export. I've never even known its existence if I wasn't given a gift box of all the shapes some years ago: hardly "the best pasta in the world", just meh, if you have to spend more don't buy it IMO.
Probably better Felicetti (never tried) but I know the brand is involved in the "Senatore Cappelli" affaire because somebody says there is few real Cappelli in it. Not a problem for me, I do not really understand all the hype for the "ancient wheat" (started many years ago in the States with khorasan-kamut and often has less to do with cultural and biological heritage and more with business) nor the idea that the best pasta is made with weath grown in Italy. In reality it is often easier, for particular climate reasons, to obtain durum weath with all the qualities needed for pasta making outside Italy.
One of the best consumer brand in Italy, Rummo, has weath from Australia in his recipe. And one of the best "gourmet" pasta maker, Cavalier Giuseppe Cocco, use Extra Durum Arizona only (guess where it is from). On the other side there are good quality brands, consumer and artisanal gourmet, using just italian weath, like Martelli, for me the best of all (but just 3 shapes short - penne maccheroni e fusilli - and 2 long - spaghetti e spaghettini). Worth a try if you can, but it is a real small artisanal maker and it is difficult to source even in Italy.
If you want to go really back to the past and taste something "different" try pasta made of farro (emmer) flour.
Probably better Felicetti (never tried) but I know the brand is involved in the "Senatore Cappelli" affaire because somebody says there is few real Cappelli in it. Not a problem for me, I do not really understand all the hype for the "ancient wheat" (started many years ago in the States with khorasan-kamut and often has less to do with cultural and biological heritage and more with business) nor the idea that the best pasta is made with weath grown in Italy. In reality it is often easier, for particular climate reasons, to obtain durum weath with all the qualities needed for pasta making outside Italy.
One of the best consumer brand in Italy, Rummo, has weath from Australia in his recipe. And one of the best "gourmet" pasta maker, Cavalier Giuseppe Cocco, use Extra Durum Arizona only (guess where it is from). On the other side there are good quality brands, consumer and artisanal gourmet, using just italian weath, like Martelli, for me the best of all (but just 3 shapes short - penne maccheroni e fusilli - and 2 long - spaghetti e spaghettini). Worth a try if you can, but it is a real small artisanal maker and it is difficult to source even in Italy.
If you want to go really back to the past and taste something "different" try pasta made of farro (emmer) flour.
Last edited:
Keith_W
Major Contributor
Thank you for an informative post! Over here, we can all these brands listed by Vincenzo in his video:
We are fortunate to have him in Australia! All his recipes use ingredients that he bought in Australia, which means he faces the same limitations that I do. Awful watery Australian tomatoes. The only good ones are the ones you grow yourself or buy from a farmer's market. Difficult to find guanciale and other specialty Italian foods (although I am lucky enough to live near a large Italian community in Melbourne). The lemons here are nowhere as good as Italian lemons. In one video (this one) he makes a mushroom pasta in Italy, and he used Cantina Zaccagnini Bianco di Ciccio and Porcini mushrooms. Well, that lead me to a hunt where I drove all over Melbourne, and found myself the exact same wine he used and dried porcini mushrooms (that's the best I can do here).
Anyway, here is a brief summary of his pasta video:
Mass produced pasta brands (he gives a rating): Divella: 3/10, Barilla: 5/10, Di Cecco: 6.5/10, La Molisana: 7.5/10, Granoro: 6/10, Rummo: 7/10, Di Martino: 7.5/10, Delverde: 8/10, Liguori: 7/10
Artisanal pasta brands. He does not give a rating, but he thinks they are all good: Mancini, Rustichella d'Abruzzo, Pasta Giuseppe Cocco, Masciarelli, Verrigni, Afeltra, Benedetto Cavallieri, Martelli, Monograno Felicetti
His overall top 3: Cocco, Mancini, and Rustichella
Of course, this is the opinion of one pasta obsessed Italian. I am merely a pasta obsessed Chinese guy, so my opinion hardly counts
Why so humble? You guys invented it right?I am merely a pasta obsessed Chinese guy, so my opinion hardly counts
Lol!
theREALdotnet
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2022
- Messages
- 1,437
- Likes
- 2,467
Of course, this is the opinion of one pasta obsessed Italian. I am merely a pasta obsessed Chinese guy, so my opinion hardly counts
I don’t think the answer to Amir’s original question is “pasta snobbery” per se. I believe people (Italians, but others too) simply object to using names of dishes for things that aren’t those dishes. If you clean out your fridge and end up with a tasty dish call it dinner, call it whatever you like, just not Carbonara. That name is already taken.
Besides, Carbonara is one of the simplest of dishes, both in terms of ingredients and technique*. As chef Jean-Pierre would say – a child could do it! And there is no excuse for liberal substitutions, either. Guanciale, Pecorino Romano and La Molisana pasta are readily available even in Sydney (where you can’t buy decent black bread), and are not expensive.
* with a little practice
I've bought Martelli here in Sydney, great pasta. Thanks for the reminder.
Keith_W
Major Contributor
Why so humble? You guys invented it right?
Don't say that, the Italians will shoot you! Noodles were invented independently by Europeans and Chinese. I say "Europeans" because there is some dispute as to whether it was invented by the Greeks or the Etruscans (predecessors of Romans). Marco Polo's diaries already contained knowledge of pasta, and he compares the Chinese noodles he saw with pasta varieties he had at home.
I make pasta and Chinese noodles from scratch and there are a number of differences.
- There are no extruded noodles in Chinese cuisine.
- Al dente is achieved differently. In pasta, you get al dente by drying and avoiding overcooking. In noodles you add other agents, e.g. an alkali agent that firms up the gluten and makes it chewy. The Chinese would never, ever undercook noodles intentionally.
- Not all Chinese noodles are al dente. Some are very soft.
- There are no Italian noodles I am aware of that are stretched.
- No such thing as steamed noodles in Italian cuisine (how to make it: pour your batter over muslin cloth and steam it until you get a sheet. Then cut it into noodles).
- Chinese noodles are made from a larger variety of grains, e.g. rice, millet, sorghum, konjac, sweet potato, and wheat flour. AFAIK pasta is only made from wheat flour.
- In general, Chinese noodle sauces are more complex than Italian. The simplest Chinese noodle recipe I can think of are soy sauce noodles (light and dark soy sauce, sesame seeds, sesame oil, bean sprouts, rice wine, and spring onion). The simplest Italian pasta recipe I can think of is Pasta con Burro (butter and parmesan) or Olio e Aglio (olive oil, garlic, parsley, and chilli). Chinese noodles are supposed to have complex flavours and textures, whereas Pasta is about making a few ingredients sing.
- There are far more varieties of Chinese noodle soups (and Asian noodle soups in general - every Asian culture has its own noodle soup: think Vietnamese Pho, Malaysian Laksa, Pad Thai, Japanese Ramen and Soba, Korean Ramen, and countless Chinese varieties) than Italian. Italians mostly have boiled pasta mixed with sauce.
- No cheese with noodles. In fact, all East Asian cultures are mostly dairy free. Don't ask me why.
- Chinese have no equivalent of lasagna (boiled noodle sheets baked in an oven). In fact, Chinese have very few baked dishes in general. Only bread is baked, but more often than not bread is roasted, fried, or steamed.
What both cuisines have in common:
- Both have dumplings. Tortellini and Ravioli in Italian, and countless Chinese dumplings. Both cuisines cook dumplings by boiling or deep frying, but Chinese also steam dumplings. Chinese dumplings are rarely doused with sauce (although you can serve it with a dipping sauce), whereas Italian dumplings are usually mixed with sauce.
- Both have versions of noodles with egg and without.
- Both have "pasta fresca" and "pasta secca" (fresh and dried noodles).
I don't think one cuisine is superior to the other, although with the size of China, its long history, and greater variety of produce means that Chinese noodles are much more varied than pasta.
Oh, I totally agree! Once you give a dish a name, you have certain expectations. Chinese food isn't as tightly defined as Italian food, so you have certain latitude for your own interpretation. Nobody would frown if you add chicken or shrimp to your egg fried rice, not even Uncle Roger. But definitely no chicken or shrimp in your Carbonara! You can not add non-authentic ingredients to Chinese dishes and still call it Chinese, though. You have to call it something else. For example, Malaysians add belacan and sambal to egg fried rice, so they call it Nasi Goreng. And if you stray too far from the original recipe, you must call it something else. For example, Chinese add chicken and salted fish to egg fried rice and they call it "Hum Yue Kai Lup Chow Fun" ("Fried rice with salted egg and shredded chicken"). That's OK, just don't call it egg fried rice.
theREALdotnet
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2022
- Messages
- 1,437
- Likes
- 2,467
Similar threads
