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Food: didn't know Italians were so picky about their carbonara!
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
Andretti60
Active Member
Italian (emigrant) speaking.
The problem with Italian-American food is the it is… Italian American. It is NOT Italian. The first Italian emigrants were not neither cooks nor chefs, they were just poor people looking for better opportunities in life. Their dishes were very simple and they couldn’t find the original ingredients they were used to, so they had to make things up with what they were able to find. So for example forget pancetta, use bacon instead (similar taste, but different meat cut and flavor). When the results were not satisfactory, they started adding more and more Italian flavors, hence too much garlic and onion (easily available)
When Italians started to open restaurants (and most of the time they were not chefs at all), they realized that the original Italian food was not well received by the local people (both American and other immigrants) that were used to much more spicy food (watch the excellent movie Big Night by Stanley Tucci) so they bit the bullet and started a food revolution. For example as Americans have a fetish for cheese, they invented the Fettuccine Alfredo, a dish you cannot find in Italy, a variant of pasta con burro (pasta and butter) adding a ton (make it two tons) of cheese.
Many Americans ask me if I miss Italian food, I reply saying that in reality there is no such thing as Italian cuisine. Italy is a recent country, it was fully united only in 1870, before it was divided into dozen of small monarchies, after the union (it was indeed a war of conquer started by one of the biggest monarchies, the Savoia) it was split in regions each of one with their own traditions, legacy, language, customs and, of course, cuisine, made with local produce. So in Sicily we have pasta alla Norma, in Liguria we have trenette al pesto, in Lombardia risotto con ossobuco and so on. Even now this tradition remains, we can find polenta only in the north of Italy, and people in Liguria complain that the pesto prepared outside is not real pesto. There is only one thing that all Italians agree on complaining: Italian food prepared abroad.
So, don’t be surprised if Italians criticize pizza with pineapple (that when well prepared is delicious) even though they never tried it (maybe in American fast food chains, where everything taste horrible), even though the menu of an Italian pizzeria is dozen page long listing hundreds of pizzas made with new recipes invented every day. And some may be good, depending of personal taste. My favorite one: tomato sauce (i don’t want to see pieces of tomatoes in it) and anchovies: no garlic, no onion, no cheese, I just love the flavor of the anchovies… why ruin it.
The problem with Italian-American food is the it is… Italian American. It is NOT Italian. The first Italian emigrants were not neither cooks nor chefs, they were just poor people looking for better opportunities in life. Their dishes were very simple and they couldn’t find the original ingredients they were used to, so they had to make things up with what they were able to find. So for example forget pancetta, use bacon instead (similar taste, but different meat cut and flavor). When the results were not satisfactory, they started adding more and more Italian flavors, hence too much garlic and onion (easily available)
When Italians started to open restaurants (and most of the time they were not chefs at all), they realized that the original Italian food was not well received by the local people (both American and other immigrants) that were used to much more spicy food (watch the excellent movie Big Night by Stanley Tucci) so they bit the bullet and started a food revolution. For example as Americans have a fetish for cheese, they invented the Fettuccine Alfredo, a dish you cannot find in Italy, a variant of pasta con burro (pasta and butter) adding a ton (make it two tons) of cheese.
Many Americans ask me if I miss Italian food, I reply saying that in reality there is no such thing as Italian cuisine. Italy is a recent country, it was fully united only in 1870, before it was divided into dozen of small monarchies, after the union (it was indeed a war of conquer started by one of the biggest monarchies, the Savoia) it was split in regions each of one with their own traditions, legacy, language, customs and, of course, cuisine, made with local produce. So in Sicily we have pasta alla Norma, in Liguria we have trenette al pesto, in Lombardia risotto con ossobuco and so on. Even now this tradition remains, we can find polenta only in the north of Italy, and people in Liguria complain that the pesto prepared outside is not real pesto. There is only one thing that all Italians agree on complaining: Italian food prepared abroad.
So, don’t be surprised if Italians criticize pizza with pineapple (that when well prepared is delicious) even though they never tried it (maybe in American fast food chains, where everything taste horrible), even though the menu of an Italian pizzeria is dozen page long listing hundreds of pizzas made with new recipes invented every day. And some may be good, depending of personal taste. My favorite one: tomato sauce (i don’t want to see pieces of tomatoes in it) and anchovies: no garlic, no onion, no cheese, I just love the flavor of the anchovies… why ruin it.
badspeakerdesigner
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Lol this is what I came here for
This is IMMENSELY funny, if you understand what bike means in British slang. The chef (and most of youtube) thinks he just said something absurd, but it was unintentionally much funnier than he could have imagined.
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digitalfrost
Major Contributor
I know
This is IMMENSELY funny, if you understand what bike means in British slang. The chef (and most of youtube) thinks he just said something absurd, but it was unintentionally much funnier than he could have imagined.
We have something similar in german: If somebody says like if only X then Y you go: "Yeah, and if I had a wheel on my ass I'd be a wheelbarrow". I think it's the same idea in italian but with the double-meaning in british english it's even better.
They'd scream if they saw what my GF made me cook for her last weekend :-D - an Italian-American abomination her grandmother called Cavatelli Carbonara :-D... I was rolling my eyes as I looked at the recipe, but hey, she begged me to do it that way. I stated I was cooking it "under protest"... :-D but who can say no to a determined woman... Tons of bacon (totally overpowered the delicate carbonara flavor). At least I refused to put garlic in it. :-D Not because I object to a bit of garlic in carbonara, but the recipe was so rich and creamy that I don't think the flavors would have blended well at all. I just ate one bowl and told her that going forward, I am doing it my way again...
At least she'd bought a great bottle of Brunello for the occasion... :-D
Excellent message. I lived in Europe the first 30-something years of my life, and travelled a lot on my motorcycle, especially in Spain and Italy.
Especially in Southern Italy, the amazing food I often had was very few ingredients... but super high quality (Italian tomatoes grown in the sun taste very different, trust me, all you need is a bit of olive oil and salt to feast). I adore it and it's my favorite kind of food. And the cooking is immensely different from region to region. Which is the case all over Europe by the way. When I get asked "what is a typical German dish?" I just say it depends on which city you go to - Munich is worlds apart from Frankfurt, for example. Same in Spain.
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Keith_W
Major Contributor
I am of Chinese-Malaysian descent. Our food history in Western countries is the same ... Chinese-American food is NOT Chinese. It is again restaurants opened by poor people and adapted to the taste of their new country. There is no chop suey, no egg foo young, no General Tso's chicken, no satay chicken in Chinese cuisine. Even in the late 80's (which was when I migrated) it could be difficult to find Chinese ingredients in Australia, and even now some items are almost impossible to find although the situation is much better.
In the same way, there is no such thing as Chinese cuisine, even though China as a united country (or empire) has existed for much longer than Italy. This is because it is so big, and communication / cultural exchange between regions separated by distance, poor roads and railways, mountain ranges, local language, and most importantly, local produce - meant that variations in cuisine and taste was inevitable. Classically, there are 8 types of cuisine in China: Cantonese, Sichuanese, Hunanese, Shandong, Anhui, Fujian, Zhejiang, and Jiangsu. Read more about it here. In reality there are even more, if you count Xinjiang, Mongol, and Tibetan. Only Cantonese cuisine is well known in the West, because most migrants were from Guangdong.
I get what you say about Italy as a young country. It is the same with Germany (unified by Bismarck in the late 1860's). Even older countries like Spain (unified in the 15th century) and France (14th century) have distinct regional cuisines and taste, which is not surprising given that having produce from another region available to you is a recent phenomenon. And not to mention the USA, which also has regional cuisines. Although you can find lobster rolls and clam chowder in Texas, it is not as easy as finding Southern BBQ.
Coming back on topic, Carbonara illustrates how important it is when you name a dish. Once a dish has a name, it carries certain expectations. As per many Italians (I watch Italia Squisita and Vincenzo's plate on Youtube as examples of authentic Italian cuisine), Carbonara must consist of: guanciale (pancetta OK as a substitute but not recommended), cheese (recipes vary from 100% Pecorino to 100% parmigiano-reggiano to a mix of both), eggs, pepper, and water. Sometimes I have seen garlic added, but only to flavour the oil and the garlic is removed afterwards. I have also seen people remove the oil from the rendered guanciale and use olive oil instead. NOT permissible are things like bacon, cream, onion, mushrooms, peas which typically feature in Carbonara prepared by non-Italians like Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsay. As Vincenzo says, if you want to add these things, go ahead and add it. Just don't call it Carbonara.
Incidentally, Carbonara is one of my go-to's when I want to judge how authentic an Italian restaurant is. I stand outside and look at the menu. If it contains anything other than the ingredients I mentioned, I go somewhere else. You can do the same for Chinese restaurants (look for chop suey, general tso's chicken, etc) although that is complicated by the fact that Chinese restaurants sometimes have two menus - one for Chinese people and one for Westerners.
Are you referring to British slang for "bike", meaning that the bike is available for everyone to ride?
It is the two I's, Italians and Indians. Everywhere you go on youtube (at least on cooking videos), no matter if the person creating the video is of one of these groups, you will see endless complaints from the two I's about how this is 'not right', that 'shouldn't go in there' and so on. The thing they have in common, is that they almost never offer a recipe themselves, just critique. Both are very particular about their food, but are less than forthcoming about telling you how to cook it the right way.
To say something in Italian-American foods favour, it is probably very difficult to get tasty tomatoes and other vegetables in New York, it is hardly the right climate, but yeah...go a little easy on the garlic there fellas - badda bing, badda boom (boom = being blown away by garlic breath).
I suppose everything has to be adapted somewhat to local ingredients and tastes. It is a shame that some foods are more obliterated, than adapted. I also think what someone else said upthread about most people opening restaurants/takeaways abroad were not likely cooks in their home country, rings true also.
To say something in Italian-American foods favour, it is probably very difficult to get tasty tomatoes and other vegetables in New York, it is hardly the right climate, but yeah...go a little easy on the garlic there fellas - badda bing, badda boom (boom = being blown away by garlic breath).
I suppose everything has to be adapted somewhat to local ingredients and tastes. It is a shame that some foods are more obliterated, than adapted. I also think what someone else said upthread about most people opening restaurants/takeaways abroad were not likely cooks in their home country, rings true also.
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I seem to have no trouble finding GREAT produce here. Heirloom tomatoes in the summer are particularly awesome. We're getting closer to ramp, asparagus, and morel season. I have an asparagus patch in my back yard which gives me sweet, tender spears when harvested daily.
Keith_W
Major Contributor
May I point you towards these excellent Italian cooking channels:
- Italia Squisita. This is a foundation that videos various chefs talking about their recipes. Some videos are better than others in that they actually give you a recipe to follow. Others are really complicated and some chefs are not as forthcoming as others. It's all in Italian, so make sure you turn your subtitles on. Some chefs are funny, some are serious, some are country Nonnas, some run Michelin Star restaurants, and some are street food vendors. The filming is beautiful and it's always entertaining to watch.
- Vincenzo's Plate. Likeable character. I have made a few of his recipes, and I can tell you that they work. Maybe not as good as what I tasted in Italy, but it comes really close and is already better than many Italian restaurants in Australia.
- Alex. OK he's French and not Italian. Nor does he specialize in Italian food. But this guy does deep dives into dishes in a way you have never seen, and tries to replicate them the most authentic way possible. Particularly good is his series on Carbonara. He has also tried to make the perfect fried rice, even going into a deep dive into wok tossing skills in the process.
Avoid videos by Jamie Oliver and Gennaro Contaldo. I'm not Italian but even I know that Gennaro doesn't really know what he is doing. And Jamie, well ... he's an idiot.
Yeah, I didn't fully explain my thinking. I meant historically, when Italians started arriving in numbers. These days, you could probably find almost anything of excellent quality in New York. Probably a more limited growing season than the south of Italy, I'd imagine...btw what is ramp?
Thanks. Yes, I watch Italia Squisita occasionally. I feel Italian food is usually quite simple with emphasis on quality ingredients, so if you haven't got quite the right ingredients, it often isn't worth cooking, because it is often not possible to substitute other ingredients and get the correct result.
It seems counter intuitive, but the simpler the food, the harder it is to get right. I think this somewhat explains the bad reputation British food has abroad. It is simple food with emphasis on good ingredients and typically slow cooking, so when translated to a restaurant environment rarely hits the mark. British people have a very utilitarian view towards food as well, so most will eat almost anything, though many draw the line at the plastic/spray cheese available in the US (please, no, stop!).
Dare I say that Brits have the best cheese....hmm, dare I...?
It's a wild plant in the leek family.
Ramps ~ Identifying & Foraging Wild Leeks (Allium tricoccum)
Wild Leeks, also known as Ramps (Allium tricoccum) are a favorite of foragers in the Northeast, and they often make their way into farmer's market stands throughout the region. Learn how to find, identify and
practicalselfreliance.com
I think you really hit the point. I spent a few week in the States this summer and I manged to find what I needed to cook a carbonara, maybe not the best guanciale in the world but not bad. Nowadays you can find almost everything everywhere, so there is no more need to use substitutes or to add a lot of ingredients.
Just put what is needed, the fewer the better. I like parmesan, pecorino, olive oil, garlic, onions but I don't put them everywhere.
And one recipe I find really hard to get right is "cacio e pepe". Just pecorino cheese, pasta and black pepper but if you don't want a mess you have to follow strictly the instructions
Where do you get the cavatelli? It's not easy to DIY. Do you have a local shop for fresh pasta? (I see you are in the SF area, so I suspect it's not too hard to find a place) Here outside of DC we generally wind up ordering a few pounds of cavatelli each year from a maker in Philadelphia.
Keith_W
Major Contributor
The Scots deep-fry Pizza.
So do Italians. They call it "pizza fritti" or "panzerotti" (a small pizza fritti).
Amazon carries maybe a dozen different brands.
restorer-john
Grand Contributor
That's funny.
Keith_W
Major Contributor
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