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Focal 'w' sandwich and 'Be' based speakers

Aventador_SVJ

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This is my first post and for a couple of months I have been looking at this site with utter admiration.

I too think that sound is all about science and objective measurements and if something sounds better, it can be objectively measured.

The audiophile world has been crying out for audiosciencereview and for once and for all, get rid of all of the 'snake oil'.

On my hifi journey of now (over 30 years), I have come across several brands that I had always seen as the reference brands in their price categories: Oppo's '05 series (205, 105) Blu-ray products, Focal mid/high range speakers and to a lesser extent, Arcam's analogue based products. Cables are their for purpose and as long as they meet their shielding/specification (e.g. USB 3.0) requirements, the lowest price one should suffice.

I see the Oppo's 205 Blu-ray player is rated very highly, as is the Focal Aria 906 (have these in my bedroom) to a slightly lesser degree.

Anyway, back on topic - it would be really quite fantastic to see a review of some of the higher technology based speakers from Focal, that are based on their 'w' sandwich woofers and Beryllium (Be) based tweeters and see if what I hear is true.

I've tested endless speakers from the likes of B&W, PMC, TDL, Kef, Dynaudio, Mission and have always thought (their lower range Chorus aside) that Focal were in a different league from subjective listening.

I have read many a time that the reason why Focal's 'w' / 'Be' based speakers were better is because 1) The drivers have amongst the best transient response (how they start and stop) and that they are one of the few manufacturers that have full control (they design/manufacture the drivers, cabinets and crossovers) and can borrow from Naim for the active amplifier speaker range. The beryllium material choice for a tweeter is quite extravagant but it does seem to have low mass/rigidity in comparison with other materials.

Hence, I would expect that the Utopia, Sopra or Solo/Trio 6 Be's to achieve high scores objectively - it would be great if some of these were submitted for review to validate what I have heard.

Note: I now own a miniDSP SHD because 1) it meets my use cases and because of the objective measurements provided by the reviews on this forum.
 

dfuller

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Beryllium tweeters are really about as good as you can get in most aspects. It's extremely light and extremely stiff, and while it's not particularly well damped internally, its breakup modes are way beyond (over an octave above) human hearing range. Course, it's also stupidly nasty stuff to work with.

As far as composite cone materials, Focal has put a lot of time and money into developing them, and generally they do have some advantages over single-material cones in terms of distortion performance. The "w" cone is as I understand it a fiberglass/foam/fiberglass layer- it has the advantages of glass fibers in that it's very stiff and low mass, but the foam has high internal damping. The flax cones have a similar advantage - albeit, it's flax fibers rather than foam for the core.

This is the flax cone on an Aria 906. The rapid rise in %THD at low frequencies is normal (all speakers do it), but that it doesn't spike pretty much at all until 50hz at 86dB/1m is impressive as hell.

1610919858799.png
 
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Aventador_SVJ

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Beryllium tweeters are really about as good as you can get in most aspects. It's extremely light and extremely stiff, and while it's not particularly well damped internally, its breakup modes are way beyond (over an octave above) human hearing range. Course, it's also stupidly nasty stuff to work with.

As far as composite cone materials, Focal has put a lot of time and money into developing them, and generally they do have some advantages over single-material cones in terms of distortion performance. The "w" cone is as I understand it a fiberglass/foam/fiberglass layer- it has the advantages of glass fibers in that it's very stiff and low mass, but the foam has high internal damping. The flax cones have a similar advantage - albeit, it's flax fibers rather than foam for the core.

This is the flax cone on an Aria 906. The rapid rise in %THD at low frequencies is normal (all speakers do it), but that it doesn't spike pretty much at all until 50hz at 86dB/1m is impressive as hell.

View attachment 106721

I do like the Focal Aria 906 but also have some floor-standing Focal (JM Labs) Cobalt 816S that I think are really amazing - these use the 'W' sandwich cones with a treated Tioxid tweeter (borrowed from what was their Electra range).

For my dining room system, I am considering purchasing either 1) Some Focal Solo 6 Be to attach to the MiniDSP SHD or 2) add a Hypex NC400/ Purifi based amplifier to the SHD/my current speakers.

I see that there are some good reviews from Neumann/Genelec brands, which are recording studio based speakers on here and thus aren't very aesthetic - I know this is secondary on these forums but you do need to look at speakers, unlike the other piece of equipment, which you can put into a cupboard.
 
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Lbstyling

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I do like the Focal Aria 906 but also have some floor-standing Focal (JM Labs) Cobalt 816S that I think are really amazing - these use the 'W' sandwich cones with a treated Tioxid tweeter (borrowed from what was their Electra range).

For my dining room system, I am considering purchasing either 1) Some Focal Solo 6 Be to attach to the MiniDSP SHD or 2) add a Hypex NC400/ Purifi based amplifier to the SHD/my current speakers.

I see that there are some good reviews from Neumann/Genelec brands, which are recording studio based speakers on here and thus aren't very aesthetic - I know this is secondary on these forums but you do need to look at speakers, unlike the other piece of equipment, which you can put into a cupboard.

I have ownedand built some very prestigious speakers, and happen to have owned the 816s for 15 years.

I have given them to a friend now, but only because I cannot have the same speakers forever, and don't have room for lots of different pairs.

I tried very hard to move on from them, but just couldn't.

Your going to find it very hard to beat that speaker. Very hard indeed. The tweeter is used in the Wilson watt puppy for a reason, and the W cones used in the 's' range are the real deal used in the utopias. Silly bargain really.

They sizzle a little at the top of the treble a tiny bit, that's about the only negative I can give, but to be honest, it just makes music a bit more exciting rather than fatiguing.

They have an uncanny ability to measure flat in room without EQ. I've have them in 10+ rooms, and they never need much if any EQ to measure flat when I run a sweep in REW.

The bass is very punchy for rock music, the detail with a good amp like the purifi is incredibly good.

On my current speaker, I run a JBL 2452SL/BE compression driver that measures as good as it gets for any money, but the mid on the focals really arnt far behind at all to listen too. And the driver in the focals cost 1/40th of the money.
 
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Aventador_SVJ

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I have ownedand built some very prestigious speakers, and happen to have owned the 816s for 15 years.

I have given them to a friend now, but only because I cannot have the same speakers forever, and don't have room for lots of different pairs.

I tried very hard to move on from them, but just couldn't.

Your going to find it very hard to beat that speaker. Very hard indeed. The tweeter is used in the Wilson watt puppy for a reason, and the W cones used in the 's' range are the real deal used in the utopias. Silly bargain really.

They sizzle a little at the top of the treble, other than that, they are almost unbeatable.

Thanks for your post.

I plan to keep the following speakers:
  • Focal Aria 906 - bedroom
  • Focal Cobalt 816S (red cherry) - living room
I am wanting to sort out my dining room and currently have the MiniDSP SHD but need either:
  • a) a power amp (Hypex NC400 or Purifi) to power some ageing TDL speakers (these will eventually be replaced by the Focal Cobalt 816S from the living room)
  • b) purchase something like the Focal Solo 6's that would provide an active speaker arrangement
Appreciate your and other forum members thoughts?
 

Lbstyling

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Thanks for your post.

I plan to keep the following speakers:
  • Focal Aria 906 - bedroom
  • Focal Cobalt 816S (red cherry) - living room
I am wanting to sort out my dining room and currently have the MiniDSP SHD but need either:
  • a) a power amp (Hypex NC400 or Purifi) to power some ageing TDL speakers (these will eventually be replaced by the Focal Cobalt 816S from the living room)
  • b) purchase something like the Focal Solo 6's that would provide an active speaker arrangement
Appreciate your and other forum members thoughts?

Lol just updated my post mentioning amps! Owned the minidsp, and I'm gunna guess the TDL studio 10? Owned that too.:D

Imma guess your from the UK.

....The purifi.....you'll see.:oops:;)

NCore...I have 6 channels of NCore. I'm sure it's entirely my immagination, but the purifi is better. They are both insanely good, so who cares!
 
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Aventador_SVJ

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Lol just updated my post mentioning amps! Owned the minidsp, and I'm gunna guess the TDL studio 10? Owned that too.:D

Imma guess your from the UK.

....The purifi.....you'll see.:oops:;)

NCore...I have 6 channels of NCore. I'm sure it's entirely my immagination, but the purifi is better. They are both insanely good, so who cares!

That's right, I'm from the UK. I think I'd struggle to tell the NC400 vs the Purifi as they are both amazing. The speakers are TDL RTL 3 but with replacement drivers/crossovers. Tweeters are from a circa £3k PMC speakers. They are okay but no where near Focal.

I think it's important to have the best objective measurements across the board (source/amp/speakers) and I think the miniDSP SHD is a pretty good starting point.

Now active speakers (i.e. Focal Solo 6 BE) or not active speakers (i.e. Purifi/NC400)?
 

q3cpma

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I see that there are some good reviews from Neumann/Genelec brands, which are recording studio based speakers on here and thus aren't very aesthetic - I know this is secondary on these forums but you do need to look at speakers, unlike the other piece of equipment, which you can put into a cupboard.
Genelec makes some of its models in white, if the dull colour is the biggest problem, otherwise you should look at ME Geithain for wooden but still incredible loudspeakers.

By the way, sorry to rain on your parade, but Focal is only good, but nothing exceptional and certainly not aiming at getting the best performance. I still recommend them to family members because it's quite cheap here and made in France, but I usually follow with "you'd get better performance with KEF".
 
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Puddingbuks

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Proud owner of a pair of Electra 1028BE. :cool: With W and beryllium drivers. Now looking for a studio monitor SM9 or Trio 6.
 

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Lbstyling

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I have not looked at the measurement data for the solo 6, but we can predict the trade offs Vs keeping the 816s is the solo will have no breakup at the top (sibilance)

But the 816s with Hypex or purifi amps will be better in every other way.
 

Lbstyling

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Genelec makes some of its models in white, if the dull colour is the biggest problem, otherwise you should look at ME Geithain for wooden but still incredible loudspeakers.

By the way, sorry to rain on your parade, but Focal is only good, but nothing exceptional and certainly not aiming at getting the best performance. I still recommend them to family members because it's quite cheap here and made in France, but I usually follow with "you'd get better performance with KEF".

KEF are good with EQ. Without, it depends on the model as they nerf the bass on the lower models. Bass is 30% of preference on blind tests.
 
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Aventador_SVJ

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Proud owner of a pair of Electra 1028BE. :cool: With W and beryllium drivers. Now looking for a studio monitor SM9 or Trio 6.

Do you think that you will gain anything from this change?

The Trio's will have less bass extension?
 
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Aventador_SVJ

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I have not looked at the measurement data for the solo 6, but we can predict the trade offs Vs keeping the 816s is the solo will have no breakup at the top (sibilance)

But the 816s with Hypex or purifi amps will be better in every other way.

So perhaps the answer is to get the higher quality amplifier and build from there.

I've heard some mid sized Utopias and thought that they were fabulous, bettering the 816s slightly in the treble region.

I can't say I've heard any speaker better than the Utopia range and have listened to hundreds over the years.

The ones I listened to looked a little odd though!
 
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Aventador_SVJ

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Genelec makes some of its models in white, if the dull colour is the biggest problem, otherwise you should look at ME Geithain for wooden but still incredible loudspeakers.

By the way, sorry to rain on your parade, but Focal is only good, but nothing exceptional and certainly not aiming at getting the best performance. I still recommend them to family members because it's quite cheap here and made in France, but I usually follow with "you'd get better performance with KEF".

Not sure about the appearance of the ME Geithain but they certainly like to charge a lot of money.

Always thought Focal were there for nothing else but their sound. There more recent additions also have some nice design touches.

Never been impressed with any Kef speaker (listened to Kef references, over 10 years ago mind). Always have seen Kef alongside B&W.

They have always been in the line up but never made the purchase - if I was to judge on what I have heard, I would have said Focal, PMC, followed by Dynaudio.
 

Puddingbuks

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Do you think that you will gain anything from this change?

The Trio's will have less bass extension?
I’m hoping for better sound from the active design.

I have this for bass:

Adam Audio sub 15
 

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Lbstyling

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So perhaps the answer is to get the higher quality amplifier and build from there.

I've heard some mid sized Utopias and thought that they were fabulous, bettering the 816s slightly in the treble region.

I can't say I've heard any speaker better than the Utopia range and have listened to hundreds over the years.

The ones I listened to looked a little odd though!

All 6+1 standmounts suffer from rising distortion below 200/300Hz. The focals are notably better than most for this, but not immune.

A good sub placed between a pair of speakers and crossed as high as you dare will help alot if you went this route, but it cannot compete with having a second bass driver in a floor standing cabinet playing 200/300hz.

On a spinorama, sound on axis and off look significantly better using BE, as the material remains pistonic at high frequencies. But it's really not a huge difference to the sound you actually hear or how much you enjoy it when cymbals sound completely clear.

The alternative standmount's lower distortion and output from 30hz to 500hz- now, that's a game changer. Your foot will start to tap to the song and you will start singing along.

I mean, don't get me wrong, BE is the ultimate material and my own drivers have it at great cost, but it's nowhere near as impactful to have as low distortion, correctly leveled mid bass.

That's the difference, that's exactly what is missing from the KEF R300 big time.

Floorstanders. + A good sub? Now your talking!
 
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Lbstyling

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Lbstyling

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Great, you have your own dedicated barn for a home cinema - how do you actually move these into position?(fork lift)

Yup and a wheeled piano dolly is the easiest way to move big speakers around on flat ground.

I don't have the grand utopias pictured if that's what you mean? My speakers are actually bigger than that :D
 
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Aventador_SVJ

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Yup and a wheeled piano dolly is the easiest way to move big speakers around on flat ground.

I don't have the grand utopias pictured if that's what you mean? My speakers are actually bigger than that :D

Wow, you must have a crazy sized room to fit speakers in that are bigger than the Grand Utopias!

The only product that I have come across on here that might be in with a shout for being acceptable in a home environment and accurate sound reproduction as an alternative to Focal might be Revel - I haven't come across this brand in person. It took 50 miles to get to a Focal dealer for goodness sake.

Anyway, I'm leaning to a Purifi / Hypex NC400 based amplifier at the moment.
 
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