Focal Clear vs Clear Pro vs HD650

[hadadzhi]

Hi!

I would like some discussion on the following two points. Maybe someone can clear up my mind. Please read to the end.

1. Here are two measurement reports from the same site:
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/FocalClearsnA1BRQE000007.pdf
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD650.pdf
These, as far as I can tell, suggest that Focal Clear's FR is less flat than HD650's from 100Hz and up. Also, they suggest that Clear has higher distortion at 100dB, while distortion at 90dB is generally lower with Clear.
Okay, bear with me, please. Here are measurements of the same headphones by a different party:
https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/fr-hd650.png?w=800 (hd650)
https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/fr-clear.png?w=800 (clear)
Now, these seem to suggest the opposite -- here Clear is flatter than 650. Also, here are some distortion graphs:
https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/dist-l-percent.png?w=800 (hd650)
https://diyaudioheaven.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/dist-clear-l-percent.png?w=800 (clear)
These, again, suggest that Clear has the same or maybe slightly less distortion.
Please note that in these graphs, one channel of the Clear is kind of "bad".

2. Okay, this point will be controversial. I completely and fully understand that my ears are NOT measuring devices, please believe me that I'm not a "subjectivist" when it comes to sound, but actually consider myself somewhat of an "objectivist". But today I journeyed to a place where I could demo the Clears, and took my HD650 with me to compare. Now, I was quite surprised when they asked me which Focal Clear I wanted to demo. Turns out, there are two versions -- Focal Clear, and Focal Clear Professional. "Of course," I thought, "the difference must be only in color and included accessories". But, funny thing. I didn't like the "normal" clears almost immediately after donning them. While the "pro" ones sounded better to me in terms of everything below 200Hz than my HD650. Unconvinced, I just bought a pair of new earpads for my well-worn HD650 and went home.

Now, I might have a little bit of a conspiracy theory here, but the only sane explanation to today's experience that I could come up with, is that maybe, somehow, "normal" clears have a quality control issue where some or all of them have one or both "bad" drivers, while the "pro" version is better controlled. I don't know, really.

So that's why I decided to post here to get some input from this fine community

 

[solderdude]

Very hard to say what caused this.
I never measured the Clear Professional (but maybe will) so cannot say if and how they differ other than in the obvious ways (cable, pads).

 

[Gabs]

I "heard" the HD650, Clear and Clear Pro. The Clear pro seemed more neurtal, less emphasis on the mid bass region, and then seemed more "clear" than the reglular "clear", which seemed "not clear att all" to me. I did not like the HD650, but I really can't trell why. I have the Aeon closed but I find it dull. I have the Oppo PM3 wich is neutral but lack a little bit in the treble region.

 

[solderdude]

The AEON closed needs a little boost around 3kHz which removes the 'dull' upper mids.

 

[Gabs]

Oh interesting, I will tried, thanks !

 

[hadadzhi]

I have a sneaking suspicion that many people don't like HD650 simple because they just clamp your poor head so mercilessly. Also, the stock pads were kind of garbage on mine. Wore out quickly, too. I picked up a pair of aftermarket ones and they are much more comfortable

Nevertheless, good to hear that other people heard a clear difference between the Pro and non-Pro Clears. I might not have gone completely crazy yet

 

[solderdude]

The clamp on the HD650 (newer models, the earlier ones were low clamping force) can easily be lowered.
The pads indeed soften up quickly and don't feel comfy to the skin at first.
When the pads soften up the tonal balance becomes darker (often mistaken for burn-in of the drivers)

 

[hadadzhi]

The clamp on the HD650 (newer models, the earlier ones were low clamping force) can easily be lowered.

Oh! Can you elaborate on the method to lower the clamping force?

 

[solderdude]

Do this in small steps... try it on your head in between the bending attempts to see how low the clamping force is.
You can also undo this. Don't lower clamping force too much.
Do it symmetrically on both sides of the headphone.
Don't apply force to the plastic parts.
The picture shows the HD58X prototype but is the same for HD600/HD650/HD660S/HD6XX

NEVER bend the plastic headband (what Tyll suggested as a good method) as you'll crack the paint and possibly even the plastic.

 

[hadadzhi]

Thanks!

By the way, not to steer off topic, but can someone suggest headphones close to HD650 in the mid and high freqs, but with deeper (meaning more or less flat FR extended to lower frequencies), flatter and less distorted bass?

Personally, I think, the Clear Professional were it, but honestly don't know if it's worth the difference in price, and also there is still an open question concerning the "bad" drivers in some Clears...

 

[solderdude]

HD660S comes to mind.
Clear is another one but the treble is not like that of the HD650.
DT1990 + treble filter is a step up from the HD650 IMO but much more expensive (as is the HD660S)

 

[JJB70]

If the filter tames the DT1990 treble then it'll be a superb headphone as it is built like a tank (makes the HD650 feel low rent, though the Sennheiser's are actually extremely durable), very nicely accessorised and other than the treble which is an acquired taste the performance is excellent. The DT1990 seems to have dropped in price quite a bit lately and now looks pretty compelling as a value proposition. The Focal Clear is very expensive, even B stock Clear headphones seem to sell at twice the price of new DT1990's, that's a big difference.

 

[esm]

I have a pair of Clear Pros and a pair of HD6xxs. I find the sound profile to be extremely similar between the two, and they're both my "workhorse" cans; if I'm going to be listening to something for an extended session, I'll grab one of them. Obviously, that's all subjective, and not terribly helpful.

However, I do find the Clears to be considerably more comfortable the HD6xxs, and not because of clamping force (which has never really been a problem for me); it's the pads. The pads on the Clears feel luxurious to me, and I have far less trouble with them for long listening sessions than I do with almost any other pair of headphones I own. I also happen to prefer the black+red color scheme to the grey, but that's just me.

I have never listened to the non-pro Clears, so cannot speak definitively about the differences between them. That said, I'll leave with this quote from Focal themselves:

Clear and Clear Professional are very similar. Indeed, only the finishes Black and Red Vs Grey) and the accessories supplied are different. Clear Professional is sold with a 5m coiled cable, a 1.2m cable, a 3.5mm to 6.35mm adapter and a pair of additional cushions.

Best regards, Marine, Community Manager Focal

 

[Fluffy]

I have the Focal Clear and I've heard other Focal headphones at various stores and shows. I haven't noticed any QC issue, on the contrary – these are the most precisely built and finely tuned headphones I have encountered (except the Utopia obviously). Innerfidelity is a much more credible tester than any other on the web, and his plots show an incredibly precise driver match. The dude at DIY-Audio is doing a great job, but he often tests headphones at shows and in all sorts of unsterile conditions. I don't know where he got the Clear he tested, but I'll take his measurements with a grain of salt.

The mismatch between frequency response of the different testers is simply due to a different compensation curve. You can read more about it here: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/tutorials/how-to-interpret-graphs/3rd-party-plots/

Innerfidelity shows the raw response, so it's a bit more reliable. But there are also differences in measuring "heads" that can lead to very different raw response. In short, measuring headphones is a very complex endeavor. It's probably best to compare measurements made by the same person, and not between ones made by different people. And also not to take any measurement as absolute, but just as a tool to compare to other headphones.

About the Clear Pro - I personally never listened to or seen a measurement of the pro version of the Clears, so I don't really know why you heard a difference. I saw people writing that they are the same headphones just in different colors, but I can't be sure.

The best guess I could offer is one of two explanations – First, pads can make a big difference with the whole Focal line. So if the pads were different that could affect the sound. Second, these headphones are ultra-sensitive to high output impedances in amplifiers. On an amplifier with high output impedance (starting at somewhere like 10ohm there should be a noticeable difference), they begin to have very elevated bass levels. Not only that, it seems that every specific Clear will respond slightly different (it depends on where in the spectrum is the primary driver resonance, this varies from unit to unit). So if you listened on a high output impedance amplifier, that could explain why the bass region sounded different between the regular Clear and the pro.

Anyway I very much doubt that they will have a different QC process between the regular and pro version. They even cost the same so what would be the point?

On a personal note, I hate the HD600 line from Sennheiser and I LOVE the Focal Clear. To each his own

 

[nhunt]

FWIW re:measurements, Oratory1990 is an acoustic engineer who’s day job literally includes measuring equipment on an industry standard GRAS fixture so I tend to reference their curves when they are available:https://amp.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Re: Clear vs Clear Pro, I have also read that they are the same except for finish and accessories. I suspect people who heard a difference probably didn’t have volume perfectly matched or didn’t place them perfectly each time, high output impedance like mentioned above or any number of other common confounding things.

Regarding HD600 and Focal Clears, I have the 600/650 and have heard the Clears and while they definitely sound different, I feel they are not as different as many other popular enthusiast headphones. I think they are both really great! I wish I had a pair of Clears.

Also, the pads on the Clears are so comfy but I looked them up and they cost $200 to replace!

 

[JJB70]

The high end Focal headphones are beautifully made and ooze class, but then again at the price they should. I have only listened to the Elear, and to be honest was a little disappointed. Maybe the super positive review by Tyll at Innerfidelity set unrealistically high expectations but while I certainly wouldn't call it bad neither would I wax lyrical about it.
On comfort, that is such a personal thing that I think the only way you can establish whether you will find headphones comfortable is to try them. I found the Elear pretty comfortable but not as comfortable as many Beyerdynamic or AKG K7... series models.

 

[WHO23]

If the filter tames the DT1990 treble then it'll be a superb headphone as it is built like a tank (makes the HD650 feel low rent, though the Sennheiser's are actually extremely durable), very nicely accessorised and other than the treble which is an acquired taste the performance is excellent. The DT1990 seems to have dropped in price quite a bit lately and now looks pretty compelling as a value proposition. The Focal Clear is very expensive, even B stock Clear headphones seem to sell at twice the price of new DT1990's, that's a big difference.

I'm happy to report that the filter not only removes the treble spike but it also improves timbre. I use the DT1990 with Analytical pads and solderdude's filter without any EQ. The downside of the filter is that you no longer feel the visceral speed of the driver.

FWIW re:measurements, Oratory1990 is an acoustic engineer who’s day job literally includes measuring equipment on an industry standard GRAS fixture so I tend to reference their curves when they are available:https://amp.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

Re: Clear vs Clear Pro, I have also read that they are the same except for finish and accessories. I suspect people who heard a difference probably didn’t have volume perfectly matched or didn’t place them perfectly each time, high output impedance like mentioned above or any number of other common confounding things.

Regarding HD600 and Focal Clears, I have the 600/650 and have heard the Clears and while they definitely sound different, I feel they are not as different as many other popular enthusiast headphones. I think they are both really great! I wish I had a pair of Clears.

Also, the pads on the Clears are so comfy but I looked them up and they cost $200 to replace!

I use oratory1990's EQ on my Focal Elex on my computer and my DAP. It definately improves the fullness of the bass & treble. There is a feeling of airiness with the EQ turned on compared with it turned off. However the soundstage is still restricted and the vocal timbre is still a bit unnatural. EQing the 600 and 650 gives vocals even more fullness but the bass is always lacking clarity no matter what you do. Bass instruments on the HD600/650 can't get the bite I get from the Verum and LCD-2 and so I actually preferred them to be recessed.

 

[ShiZo]

Focal clear (no difference with pro), I own both of them.

 

[solderdude]

except for the color scheme and cable I believe.

 

[dmac6419]

except for the color scheme and cable I believe.

Should I buy the Clear, they sound heavenly