• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Focal Clear Review (headphone)

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,874
Likes
6,672
Location
UK
The paper gives the human given scores and the calculated scores:
View attachment 100471

(Note that this is my digitized version).
So, better fitting the human given scores would thus give better accuracy. As is, the formula gave a headphone rated a ~40 and a ~90 both a score of ~70, that’s pretty bad in my opinion.

And due to measurement issues at 10kHz, I’ll probably reduce it to maybe 8kHz.
Awesome, I completely understand you now....I think that's a fantastic endeavour! (You're trying to develop algorithms to move the red points closer to the blue dots in the graph, across the whole range of headphones tested, to get a better fit.)
 

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,697
Any Grado reviews in the pipeline @amirm? I think we all know what is likely to happen there, as they are most definitely not shy about distortion and "odd" tuning. But one of your in depth reviews might start to identify exactly what (some) people like about them. Harman huggers they aint.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
I see, I am wondering will this actually be better comparison of "flat" target for overear headphones as you said everyone have their brain corrects their own HRTF, for IEMs since there's no outer ear interaction so those curves are needed?

Well it works quite well for non-angled headphones. The higher the angle the less accurate the area between 1kHz and 6kHz is.
From what I have seen it's not more than 2 dB off from HATS in that area but at least above 8kHz the correlation between perceived treble and measured is much higher for obvious reasons.
I hate IEMS so I am agnostic about them.
 

MZKM

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 1, 2018
Messages
4,240
Likes
11,462
Location
Land O’ Lakes, FL
@amirm, you only attached the deviation for this unit, will you be posting the raw L/R curves, or going forward will you just post the deviation?

No big deal, I can just inversely apply the target curve.
Also, can you just export the data page and not the Summary page (maybe just delete that page and then export)?
 
Last edited:

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,194
Likes
2,570
Well it works quite well for non-angled headphones. The higher the angle the less accurate the area between 1kHz and 6kHz is.
From what I have seen it's not more than 2 dB off from HATS in that area but at least above 8kHz the correlation between perceived treble and measured is much higher for obvious reasons.
I hate IEMS so I am agnostic about them.
IEMs are pretty great tool at office when wearing a huge one is not ideal and ppl wondering around, and in crowded cities like here in Hong Kong, even closed back over the ear will be too easy to be knocked off by some stranger beside you, and CIEM nowadays are pretty darn good.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
Yes, they work great for a lot of people. Just not for me. I hate to push ear-gunk deeper into my ear when I put them in and my ear canals are quite narrow and not the same. I have tried a few generic ones and hate to put things in my ear.
Crinacle does a fine job with IEMs and for me measurements and perceived sound correlation is important. Can't do that with IEM's.
That's why I only measure on and over-ears ... because I am not interested in IEM's and for me it's just a hobby.
 

Dro

Active Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2018
Messages
221
Likes
205
I have a Focal Clear Pro. Weirdly, it measured having less and less lower bass over time, with upper bass going up. This has also progressed over a time where I did not use it a lot. The HD800 that I have showed no such change in bass.

If I pay 1500 EUR to get a headphone with good lower bass, I would rather that not to change over time.

It also showed nonlinearity in bass, with bass getting louder relatively to everything else at higher SPL.

I wonder how old the one Amir measured is.
 

pozz

Слава Україні
Forum Donor
Editor
Joined
May 21, 2019
Messages
4,036
Likes
6,827
Good god, man. Are all iconic headphones going to have disappointing measurements like this? I've been all about seeking the Clear as a second set of headphones for months up until a few minutes ago. Now I'm thinking I'll just stick with speakers.
Just curious: which of the measured results convinced you to forego these headphones?
 

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,697
Yes, they work great for a lot of people. Just not for me. I hate to push ear-gunk deeper into my ear when I put them in and my ear canals are quite narrow and not the same. I have tried a few generic ones and hate to put things in my ear.
Crinacle does a fine job with IEMs and for me measurements and perceived sound correlation is important. Can't do that with IEM's.
That's why I only measure on and over-ears ... because I am not interested in IEM's and for me it's just a hobby.

A good fitting iem is a rarity. Even with tip rolling. I too have slightly different fit in each ear. It's a pain. But I couldn't wear over ear when walking, so I persist with iem.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
Just curious: which of the measured results convinced you to forego these headphones?

I would even dare to say that one should listen to headphones that one wants to buy first before trusting reviews and measurements.
Obviously the interest was peaked before as he was contemplating buying them.
The only downsides for Focal (and the reason I never bought one) are the hard clipping at extreme bass levels, warranty issues and absurd pricing for pads. Sound quality/distortion certainly are no reasons for not buying these... in fact sound quality and distortion levels are the main reason to buy them. Upper treble can be a bit 'steely'.
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,838
The reason is very simple.

One point Amir makes is valid. The darn drivers clip and they clip hard above a certain point. You need to boost subbass a lot for this to happen.
The resonance point of these drivers is really low, much lower than most others.

Suppose we listen to music and not a sine at 20 Hz. Then bass notes and kick drums are about the lowest frequencies around. Let's forget church organs or the damping mechanism thud of a grand piano for instance.
Here's the spectrum of a kick drum:
voxengo-span-how-to-tighten-up-the-kick-drum-edm-electro-house-bassdrum.png


Below the spectrum of the lowest note in a country song:
2017-05-18_LI_thumb.jpg


One thing is clear.. below the lowest note (around 35Hz) the energy drops really fast. Those levels are easily -30dB down. And that's where the driver gets in trouble. We can measure it and say how bad it is (look at Amirs klippels and see most speakers do a similar thing) but he reality is there is little to no energy there in music.

Now have a look at the distortion plot of the Clear at 94dB SPL
View attachment 100432

The distortion starts to rise below 40Hz. In music, however there isn't 94dB SPL there at all so that's why you don't hear it.. because in reality (music) the frequencies aren't there. We can measure it and even at unrealistic levels and show the results but that doesn't mean it is audible.

Enjoy your Clear.. it is an excellent headphone. Clear drivers don't break easily (the older 80 Ohm drivers, ELear, Elex etc. do) but use sensible levels and you're fine with detailed and distortion free music reproduction. Just don't try to use a tone generator to hear 20Hz at 110dB SPL. (80 Phon)

Note the 10kHz distortion spike is a measurement artifact of the used HATS due to the massive dip it has at that frequency and the % conversion.
There is no dip at 10kHz The peak around 15kHz is real though.
dist-clear-l.png
With that in mind, since EQed behaviour seams to be almost a must for @amirm assessment of the performance, would it be fair to assume that this could benefit from a sharp low cut at 30 Hz or so, and if the recommendation could have changed with such a tweak.
 

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,697
I would even dare to say that one should listen to headphones that one wants to buy first before trusting reviews and measurements.
Obviously the interest was peaked before as he was contemplating buying them.
The only downsides for Focal (and the reason I never bought one) are the hard clipping at extreme bass levels, warranty issues and absurd pricing for pads. Sound quality/distortion certainly are no reasons for not buying these... in fact sound quality and distortion levels are the main reason to buy them. Upper treble can be a bit 'steely'.

Quite. If they are in your price bracket I agree these are ones to hear. The weight, fit and other factors you mention are the cons, not the "sound".

Though reading less than great reviews of 'phones I enjoy is tough I think there is plenty of scope to enjoy transducers that don't receive an objective thumbs up. I haven't noticed the clipping but I'm not a loud listener but there are plenty that have experienced it to make me believe amir's test subject isn't unique in this. Not ideal for $1500.
 

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,697
With that in mind, since EQed behaviour seams to be almost a must for @amirm assessment of the performance, would it be fair to assume that this could benefit from a sharp low cut at 30 Hz or so, and if the recommendation could have changed with such a tweak.
Suspect the argument would be if the eq totally removes a chunk of the audible spectrum to alleviate a design flaw, it can't get a recommendation with that eq.
 

blse59

Active Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
115
Likes
96
Good god, man. Are all iconic headphones going to have disappointing measurements like this? I've been all about seeking the Clear as a second set of headphones for months up until a few minutes ago. Now I'm thinking I'll just stick with speakers.
It would be funny if the M50x came in and blew all of them away.
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,194
Likes
2,570
Suspect the argument would be if the eq totally removes a chunk of the audible spectrum to alleviate a design flaw, it can't get a recommendation with that eq.
Well I do question the "design flaw" designation, it seems that all these iconic headphones/IEMs are not designed to match the Harman Preference Curve but the diffuse field curve instead, be it Etymotic, Sennheiser, Hifiman, Focal, Beyer, AKG, Ultimate Ears Reference ... etc. when accessed that why I bet only those "bass head" designs would get the recommendation from Amirm, forcing them to the not designed for Harman Curve is kind of like modding a bike to carry 5 ppl or claiming the phone camera don't zoom 20x optically and says they have design flaws..

I would suggest at the final of each review overlay the measurement with some major target curves to see do they fit well with one and deviated a hell lot away from others or it's just junk for all curves. In that way anyone having a pair of standard reference phones in local store and their EQable DAP/phone can go and try which of the curves suit them more and then make a choice in each group?
 

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,697
Well I do question the "design flaw" designation, it seems that all these iconic headphones/IEMs are not designed to match the Harman Preference Curve but the diffuse field curve instead, be it Etymotic, Sennheiser, Hifiman, Focal, Beyer, AKG, Ultimate Ears Reference ... etc. when accessed that why I bet only those "bass head" designs would get the recommendation from Amirm, forcing them to the not designed for Harman Curve is kind of like modding a bike to carry 5 ppl or claiming the phone camera don't zoom 20x optically and says they have design flaws..

I would suggest at the final of each review overlay the measurement with some major target curves to see do they fit well with one and deviated a hell lot away from others or it's just junk for all curves. In that way anyone having a pair of standard reference phones in local store and their EQable DAP/phone can go and try which of the curves suit them more and then make a choice in each group?

I was referring to the clipping. Assume that is why @PeteL was suggesting a cut below 30 hz, to alleviate that. I agree a FR that isn't Harman is not a design flaw, nor, to my mind, necessarily a negative.
 

YSC

Major Contributor
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Messages
3,194
Likes
2,570
I was referring to the clipping. Assume that is why @PeteL was suggesting a cut below 30 hz, to alleviate that. I agree a FR that isn't Harman is not a design flaw, nor, to my mind, necessarily a negative.
Right, then that's more than a fair comment, I too was tempted for the Focals with it's look and sound in demo before I got into genelecs in my small room, but the driver batches issues are what stops me, the high price with gamble with luck isn't something I would like to try
 

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,874
Likes
6,672
Location
UK
@amirm, you only attached the deviation for this unit, will you be posting the raw L/R curves, or going forward will you just post the deviation?

No big deal, I can just inversely apply the target curve.
Also, can you just export the data page and not the Summary page (maybe just delete that page and then export)?
F*ck me, I want to see the raw curves, I don't want to see just the compensated graph showing the deviation from the Harman Target! :) (I don't mind seeing the compensated graph in addition though.). This would be true for the attached data files too, the raw curves are more important to me personally for both understanding but also for EQ purposes, I prefer manually EQ'ing to the raw measurements rather than compensated curve....it makes it more possible to see what is really going on by EQ'ing using the raw measurments.
 
Last edited:

Robbo99999

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
6,874
Likes
6,672
Location
UK
With that in mind, since EQed behaviour seams to be almost a must for @amirm assessment of the performance, would it be fair to assume that this could benefit from a sharp low cut at 30 Hz or so, and if the recommendation could have changed with such a tweak.
As long as the cut wasn't too high - I think ideally you want your headphones to act like having subs with speakers, I've used a high pass filter to start cutting at 20Hz (specifically a 12Hz High Pass Filter at Q0.75) to subjective general increased clarity effect on my NAD HP50 headphones. Arguably you'd have to apply that cut at a higher point for these Focal Clear headphones, so it would mean some testing to find out where best to put the cut to reduce the bottoming out & distortion of this particular headphone.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom