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Floyd Toole's Toronto AES presentation from October 28, 2025

RickS

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In my curator role, am cross posting the following content as it is embedded in a related thread and want to highlight for members that may have missed. :cool:

While his books are worthwhile reading, this is a great way to get an overview direct from a major audio researcher and valued contributor.

Thanks Floyd!
 
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Hello everybody, I just returned from giving a lecture to the Toronto section of the AES, as noted above. It was great to meet some old friends and to introduce some new audio enthusiasts to the science of audio.
The 4th edition is more than a book. It has a website - not yet accessible, but should be soon. I have already complained to the publisher.
Books are always limited by page counts and old content must be omitted to include anything new, and this time I have two extra authors. We planned in advance to have a website and the first version of it contains some historical stuff that some greybeards may find interesting, some on LP playback systems that will no doubt upset a few fans of the format. There is an expanded discussion of ITU and EBU recommendations that are in bad need of updating.
Perhaps the most important website content are some slide shows that summarize some book content, including some new material. Educators may find them useful, but I think almost anyone should scan them for an overview of specific topics. The last slide show is about "translation" and it shows spinoramas on a wide selection of pro monitors and different kinds of consumer playback devices. There are some surprises, I think. The audio world has changed for the better - dramatically.
What is now need is for people to pay more attention to trustworthy measurements and less to "opinions" formed under biased circumstances. But human nature is powerful. I focus a bit on this in my Toronto lecture, which you might find interesting. I apologize for my voice giving out near the end - age is showing . . .
I have ideas for more, and we have a window of several weeks after which we can have some revisions and new material uploaded, so stay tuned.
Cheers,
 
Here he mentions to do subwoofer measurements with all subwoofers together, not individual subs

and here he mentions to do each subwoofer measurement separate

Can somebody explain, why the difference?
 
and here he mentions to do each subwoofer measurement separate

Can somebody explain, why the difference?
That's an explanation of the automated sub optimizer called SFM (Soundfiled Management). The previous reference was someone doing manual optimization.
 
Here he mentions to do subwoofer measurements with all subwoofers together, not individual subs

and here he mentions to do each subwoofer measurement separate

Can somebody explain, why the difference?

I gave my answer in this thread. When you want to see the result (i.e. what you hear), measure all subwoofers and woofers together. But when you are doing the tuning, each woofer and subwoofer needs to be measured separately.
 
OK, some confusion here, probably my fault, but I thought I made it clear that there were two basic methods of manipulating room modes. The first used two or four identical subs in rectangular rooms, where the modal structure is simple. This essentially attenuates odd-order modes, leaving strong second-order axial and tangential modes which result I standing wave nulls at the 25% distances from the walls, which one avoids, placing listers heads in the "calm" areas between. Finally equalize with all subs operating.

The second method employs signal processing in the line-level feeds to individual subs. In this method full transfer function--amplitude and phase--measurements are made from each sub location to each listener location, and an optimization algorithm will find a collection of solutions that will reduce the seat-to-seat variations, after which global EQ can be done with all subs running. In this method rooms need not be rectangular, subs can be different and location is more flexible, but fussy users might want to try a few configurations to see if there are winners and losers.

We cannot "eliminate" rooms or room modes, but we can more successfully live with them using techniques of this kind.
 
Thank you and Happy New Year Dr. Floyd. Wishing you good health and happiness for 2026.

I bought every edition of your book and am looking forward to seeing your website!
 
I finally watched this and found it very informative. It's been a long time since I attended a Synaudcon presentation and this brought back fond memories.
Thank you Dr. Toole and all involved.
 
Hello everybody, I just returned from giving a lecture to the Toronto section of the AES, as noted above. It was great to meet some old friends and to introduce some new audio enthusiasts to the science of audio.
The 4th edition is more than a book. It has a website - not yet accessible, but should be soon. I have already complained to the publisher.
Books are always limited by page counts and old content must be omitted to include anything new, and this time I have two extra authors. We planned in advance to have a website and the first version of it contains some historical stuff that some greybeards may find interesting, some on LP playback systems that will no doubt upset a few fans of the format. There is an expanded discussion of ITU and EBU recommendations that are in bad need of updating.
Perhaps the most important website content are some slide shows that summarize some book content, including some new material. Educators may find them useful, but I think almost anyone should scan them for an overview of specific topics. The last slide show is about "translation" and it shows spinoramas on a wide selection of pro monitors and different kinds of consumer playback devices. There are some surprises, I think. The audio world has changed for the better - dramatically.
What is now need is for people to pay more attention to trustworthy measurements and less to "opinions" formed under biased circumstances. But human nature is powerful. I focus a bit on this in my Toronto lecture, which you might find interesting. I apologize for my voice giving out near the end - age is showing . . .
I have ideas for more, and we have a window of several weeks after which we can have some revisions and new material uploaded, so stay tuned.
Cheers,

Hello Dr. Toole, regarding your call to pay more attention to trustworthy measurements and less to biased opinions: At what exact playback volume (SPL) were your foundational blind tests on phase audibility conducted?

Thanks to modern tools like REW (Spectrogram slices and T60m), we now have significantly better visual methods to analyze the time domain than what was available decades ago. Through comprehensive, level-matched testing under identical room conditions, I have uncovered that many highly-regarded monitors suffer from severe cabinet and port energy storage. This is clearly unmasked by the fact that the low-frequency decay at a deep 140 ms slice varies drastically between different speaker designs (e.g., an inert egg-shaped enclosure vs. a flexing flat MDF box).

Crucially, my measurements and listening tests reveal that the louder you play a speaker, the faster the acoustic decay becomes—likely due to non-linear port turbulence (Forchheimer effect)—which makes it subjectively sound "better" or "drier" at high volumes.

But this triggers a dangerous psychoacoustic blind spot:
From 70 dB upwards, the acoustic ear muscle (**stapedius reflex**) dynamically activates and damp and make ears less sensitiv. It does not act as an on/off switch; it contracts proportionally to the volume, gradually stiffening the ossicular chain and mechanically attenuating low frequencies below 500 Hz by up to 15 dB. At typical loud studio or audio show levels (75 to 85 dB SPL), the ear actively filters out the low-frequency time-domain mess, and the tester becomes numb to phase fragmentation. Since we cannot simply buy new ears, this constant loud listening is inherently harmful.

Acoustic flaws are cumulative—they add up until the processing capacity of the brain overflows. A phase defect that is completely unnoticeable in a perfectly treated Harman-Kardon lab at a loud 85 dB will suddenly sound highly fatiguing and destructive at a normal home listening level of 72 dB, causing a strange, floating "out-of-phase" sensation and rapid listening fatigue.

Furthermore, phase audibility studies are mathematically flawed unless the listening subjects are strictly pre-screened for their ability to perceive **Interaural Time Differences (ITD)**. Modern audiology shows that a significant portion of the population has degraded ITD localization. If a tester cannot perceive ITD, phase errors will obviously look irrelevant to them.

If we want truly "trustworthy measurements," we must stop evaluating speakers exclusively in the loud "Atmos noise-zone" where human biology shuts down. We need to measure deep time-slices at realistic, quiet everyday listening levels where the ear is fully relaxed and sensitive to the time domain.

here ist table of the decay time, link to REW measures is on re forum, because it allow larg upload of mdat measures. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...e-detail-retrieval.44788/page-36#post-2637355
 
Hello Dr. Toole, regarding your call to pay more attention to trustworthy measurements and less to biased opinions: At what exact playback volume (SPL) were your foundational blind tests on phase audibility conducted?
I have never done "foundational blind tests on phase audibility". You must be thinking of someone else. My experiments revealed that the dominant audible differences between loudspeakers were attributable to resonances. Resonances have an associated phase anomaly, but it is the magnitude anomaly, not the phase or the time-domain ringing that reliably relate to audibility. Phase shift, per se, in a channel is not a significant audible factor according to several serious investigations. Finally, I don't see a logical connection to playback sound level.
Crucially, my measurements and listening tests reveal that the louder you play a speaker, the faster the acoustic decay becomes—likely due to non-linear port turbulence (Forchheimer effect)—which makes it subjectively sound "better" or "drier" at high volumes.
Ah, now I see where you are coming from - bass reflex problems. Actually, when the air flow in a port becomes non-laminar (not non-linear) the effective mass changes - it is reduced - and the reflex tuning frequency changes, so it is more than just a change in time-domain performance, the parameters of the reflex design have changed. Some years ago Harman engineers investigated optimized port profiles to minimize this effect for various applications - it is in AES publications.

rom 70 dB upwards, the acoustic ear muscle (**stapedius reflex**) dynamically activates and damp and make ears less sensitiv.
The stapedius reflex, also called the acoustic reflex, is real, of course, and because it is a muscle it fatigues with time and the bass response changes. Some people can manually activate the middle-ear muscle.
Acoustic flaws are cumulative—they add up until the processing capacity of the brain overflows. A phase defect that is completely unnoticeable in a perfectly treated Harman-Kardon lab at a loud 85 dB will suddenly sound highly fatiguing and destructive at a normal home listening level of 72 dB, causing a strange, floating "out-of-phase" sensation and rapid listening fatigue.
BTW it was the Harman International lab, not the Harman-Kardon lab. Harman-Kardon was a small brand among the many that Harman International (now part of Samsung) own. I simply don't understand what "acoustic flaws" you are talking about that cause these alarming sounding perceptual effects when listening at home.
Furthermore, phase audibility studies are mathematically flawed unless the listening subjects are strictly pre-screened for their ability to perceive **Interaural Time Differences (ITD)**. Modern audiology shows that a significant portion of the population has degraded ITD localization. If a tester cannot perceive ITD, phase errors will obviously look irrelevant to them.
ITD differences are binaural - between the ears - effects that determine localization. I did my PhD on binaural localization and know these effects well. They have little or no connection with the perception of phase shifts in the signal itself, which are single-ear perceptions. I point out in my books that there is "hidden hearing loss", a degradation in binaural hearing that can exist with or even without conventional threshold shift. Even in young people.
f we want truly "trustworthy measurements," we must stop evaluating speakers exclusively in the loud "Atmos noise-zone" where human biology shuts down. We need to measure deep time-slices at realistic, quiet everyday listening levels where the ear is fully relaxed and sensitive to the time domain.
This sounds like an opinion without references. Clearly you don't enjoy loud sounds. Hyperacusis is a possible side effect of hearing loss, which itself is aggravated by loud sounds.
Any of the test sounds used in the Harman International or before that my National Research Council of Canada subjective tests were carefully adjusted to avoid contributing to hearing loss - there are laws against damaging human subjects in laboratory experiments. From what is known now, occupational hearing conservation guidelines are insufficient to prevent hearing loss. So, serious people need to apply stricter controls. I discuss this in my books.

Cinema (Atmos??) sound levels can definitely be excessive, as can many rock concerts. Audience members can wear attenuating ear plugs or leave. Crescendos in full symphony orchestra performances can reach well over 100 dB, with average levels around 80 dB. So as you say, a "normal home listening level of 72 dB" is one way to preserve the integrity of one's hearing, but it also denies one the pleasure of hearing some of the finest music in existence. Some of us preserve our hearing so we can enjoy such moments.
 
I have never done "foundational blind tests on phase audibility". You must be thinking of someone else. My experiments revealed that the dominant audible differences between loudspeakers were attributable to resonances. Resonances have an associated phase anomaly, but it is the magnitude anomaly, not the phase or the time-domain ringing that reliably relate to audibility. Phase shift, per se, in a channel is not a significant audible factor according to several serious investigations. Finally, I don't see a logical connection to playback sound level.

Ah, now I see where you are coming from - bass reflex problems. Actually, when the air flow in a port becomes non-laminar (not non-linear) the effective mass changes - it is reduced - and the reflex tuning frequency changes, so it is more than just a change in time-domain performance, the parameters of the reflex design have changed. Some years ago Harman engineers investigated optimized port profiles to minimize this effect for various applications - it is in AES publications.


The stapedius reflex, also called the acoustic reflex, is real, of course, and because it is a muscle it fatigues with time and the bass response changes. Some people can manually activate the middle-ear muscle.

BTW it was the Harman International lab, not the Harman-Kardon lab. Harman-Kardon was a small brand among the many that Harman International (now part of Samsung) own. I simply don't understand what "acoustic flaws" you are talking about that cause these alarming sounding perceptual effects when listening at home.

ITD differences are binaural - between the ears - effects that determine localization. I did my PhD on binaural localization and know these effects well. They have little or no connection with the perception of phase shifts in the signal itself, which are single-ear perceptions. I point out in my books that there is "hidden hearing loss", a degradation in binaural hearing that can exist with or even without conventional threshold shift. Even in young people.

This sounds like an opinion without references. Clearly you don't enjoy loud sounds. Hyperacusis is a possible side effect of hearing loss, which itself is aggravated by loud sounds.
Any of the test sounds used in the Harman International or before that my National Research Council of Canada subjective tests were carefully adjusted to avoid contributing to hearing loss - there are laws against damaging human subjects in laboratory experiments. From what is known now, occupational hearing conservation guidelines are insufficient to prevent hearing loss. So, serious people need to apply stricter controls. I discuss this in my books.

Cinema (Atmos??) sound levels can definitely be excessive, as can many rock concerts. Audience members can wear attenuating ear plugs or leave. Crescendos in full symphony orchestra performances can reach well over 100 dB, with average levels around 80 dB. So as you say, a "normal home listening level of 72 dB" is one way to preserve the integrity of one's hearing, but it also denies one the pleasure of hearing some of the finest music in existence. Some of us preserve our hearing so we can enjoy such moments.
Thank you so much for taking the time to continue educating us on the science of audio! There is so much garbage out there in audiophile land that it’s hard not to fall for the hype!
After reading your book and a number of AES publications, I have learned so much that now I only purchase equipment that has been tested independently by Samir, Erin Audio Corner or Gene at Audioholics!
 
My experiments revealed that the dominant audible differences between loudspeakers were attributable to resonances.

I can confirm this as well: resonances are the biggest problem in loudspeakers, especially in monitors used in the nearfield. Because speaker testers do not test that. So speaker developers tend to ignore it.

Do you think speaker reviewers should include measurements that specifically expose cabinet resonances? What would you suggest they do? Why do you think reviewers don't show waterfalls with a long enough time window to reveal these resonances?

When using the exact same room, the same placement, and the same microphone position, a comparative measurement against an inert reference speaker clearly unmasks these cabinet issues. For example, the Focal Alpha 65 is a well-reviewed speaker, but it sounds incredibly boomy and dull even after the in-room frequency response is linearized and in compare to other cheaper speakers and headphones(with mono music compare). Looking at a deep 140 ms time-slice or the T60m plot in REW exposes this instantly.

I verified T60m, and it successfully shows the correct decay time even in small rooms. To double-check this, I also used algorithmically generated reverb impulses with frequency-dependent damping; the old RT60 metric is completely unable to do this in small listening environments, but T60m can.

focal bassport.jpg


focal t60m.jpg



In the link ipost in previous post can see more and also the whole mdat on REW forum
 
can confirm this as well: resonances are the biggest problem in loudspeakers, especially in monitors used in the nearfield. Because speaker testers do not test that. So speaker developers tend to ignore it.
It turns out that resonances are MORE audible when listening at a distance than when listening in the near field - room reflections are repeated versions of the direct sound and they include sound of the widely dispersed resonances. These repeated "looks" at resonances provide the ear/brain with more information. This,of course, applies to the desirable resonances in the music as well - music is more enjoyable, timbrally richer, when heard in rooms than it is outdoors. Concert halls are designed to deliver many, many reflections and are really enormously enjoyable comb filters.

Do you think speaker reviewers should include measurements that specifically expose cabinet resonances? What would you suggest they do? Why do you think reviewers don't show waterfalls with a long enough time window to reveal these resonances?

If you view the video in post 2 of this thread at about 1 hr 10 minutes I briefly discuss the audibility of resonances as they relate to what we measure. More detail is in the slide show that can be downloaded from: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...is-coming-discount.63666/page-13#post-2579817. Much more detail is in my books and in the JAES paper we published on the audiblity of resonances. A lot of information is in the public domain if you read.

When measuring the spinorama one gathers sound from 360 degrees so all resonances, including cabinet and port resonances are captured. The time domain information alone is not a reliable indicator of the audibility of a resonance.
Focal Alpha 65 is a well-reviewed speaker,
If you have been following my posts and writings you will have learned not to trust subjective "reviews". Trust only comprehensive anechoic measurements, such as the spinoramas. Few reviewers have access to accurate anechoic data, and many don't believe in measurements - they are selling and propagating opinions, not facts.

The following plot from Amir's excellent spinorama data shows several resonances identified in the Focal loudspeaker you mentioned. A perceptive viewer may find more - a bump that persists through all curves is evidence of a resonance. They exist, as indicated in the data, but whether they will be audible or not depends on the spectral/temporal content of the music being listened to. Some are likely to be below the threshold of audibility, but others not, and it will change with program. Ideally there should be no evidence of resonances. The most audible features are the broadband deviations from linear which are perceived as very low-Q resonances, and there is essentially no ringing from these. Time domain data, such as waterfalls, confirms the presence of medium and high-Q resonances, but is a poor predictor of their audibility.

1785247627602.png
 
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Dr. Toole, I read his response and thought that a T60m can't possibly be a good indicator of cabinet resonances. Or, if you want an acoustic measurement, something like a Cumulative Spectral Decay plot with very fine slices (with the proviso that we lose resolution due to the Gabor limit). I would have thought that an accelerometer would be more appropriate?
 
Dr. Toole, I read his response and thought that a T60m can't possibly be a good indicator of cabinet resonances. Or, if you want an acoustic measurement, something like a Cumulative Spectral Decay plot with very fine slices (with the proviso that we lose resolution due to the Gabor limit). I would have thought that an accelerometer would be more appropriate?
An acclerometer measures motion at a point. Panels resonate in complex patterns, some of which exhibit equal areas of motion in opposite directions, so little or no sound is radiated, yet vibration is present. That is why scanning laser vibrometer measurements are used. The "knuckle" test is not reliable because it stimulates vibration at a point, while it is distributed acoustic pressure inside the enclosure that is the stimulus in reality.
 
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Trust only comprehensive anechoic measurements, such as the spinoramas.

View attachment 547672

Yes, but resonances are not only at time 0 they ring longer and increase the decay time. current measurements did not show this. see here in REW spectrogram the time slice and peak energy time.

In same room and same place results are diffrent. In all positions i test, the most expensive speaker look as the worst.
the display is normalized, so at time 0 it is near linear. the decay time increase in bass happen partly from room(i have 17 qm room) and from speaker. Together give result. If room is better maybe a worse speaker is good. so for a bad room maybe better speaker help. I like a larger JBL 104 with more bass but same decay time. Wy nobody show not such results ? How does it in Klippel look when show slice at 140 ms @amirm ?. maybe you can show your results if it happen too that in your garage the focal have larger decay time as the JBL 104 ?

jbl 104 at 2 ms. It is not easy in REW to set to 0. so i let it for both at 2 ms. change not much.
jbl 104 2 ms.jpg


focal alpha 65 evo at 2ms.
focal 2 ms.jpg


JBL at 140 ms

jbl 104 140 ms.jpg


focal at 140 ms you see the focal decay only down from 89 db to 84.5 db the jbl 104 down to 80.98 at 45 hz

focal 140 ms.jpg


and the question is also does a genelec speaker or neuman that cost 4 times of the focal perform much better as the jbl 104 ?
 
Yes, but resonances are not only at time 0 they ring longer and increase the decay time. current measurements did not show this. see here in REW spectrogram the time slice and peak energy time.

In same room and same place results are diffrent. In all positions i test, the most expensive speaker look as the worst.
the display is normalized, so at time 0 it is near linear. the decay time increase in bass happen partly from room(i have 17 qm room) and from speaker. Together give result. If room is better maybe a worse speaker is good. so for a bad room maybe better speaker help. I like a larger JBL 104 with more bass but same decay time. Wy nobody show not such results ? How does it in Klippel look when show slice at 140 ms @amirm ?. maybe you can show your results if it happen too that in your garage the focal have larger decay time as the JBL 104 ?

jbl 104 at 2 ms. It is not easy in REW to set to 0. so i let it for both at 2 ms. change not much.
View attachment 547729

focal alpha 65 evo at 2ms.
View attachment 547730

JBL at 140 ms

View attachment 547731

focal at 140 ms you see the focal decay only down from 89 db to 84.5 db the jbl 104 down to 80.98 at 45 hz

View attachment 547732

and the question is also does a genelec speaker or neuman that cost 4 times of the focal perform much better as the jbl 104 ?
You are measuring the loudspeaker in a room, and the room resonances are strong. This is not a mystery. It takes two chapters in my books to explain adjacent boundary and room resonance problems, and ways to address them. I am not going to repeat it here. Sorry. The spinorama describes the performance of the loudspeaker in an anechoic situation. In-room measurements add boundary and resonance effects which require separate analysis and treatment. BTW, transducer and prominent room resonances are minimum-phase phenomena, so the time domain performance (ringing) is predictable from the amplitude vs frequency response. Parametric EQ can alleviate both.
 
@Floyd Toole Speaking of resonances, I have a question about how these are captured in the model @Sean Olive found to predict preferences from spinoramas (the «tonality score» or «Olive score»). It is slightly technical. There is a component in the score that quantifies «smoothness» (denoted as SM in Sound Reproduction). If I understand correctly, SM is the Pearson correlation coefficient (rˆ2) from fitting a line to the response curve. The question is: How well does this correlate to resonances? Does an audible resonance correlate with a high value of SM?
 
@Floyd Toole Speaking of resonances, I have a question about how these are captured in the model @Sean Olive found to predict preferences from spinoramas (the «tonality score» or «Olive score»). It is slightly technical. There is a component in the score that quantifies «smoothness» (denoted as SM in Sound Reproduction). If I understand correctly, SM is the Pearson correlation coefficient (rˆ2) from fitting a line to the response curve. The question is: How well does this correlate to resonances? Does an audible resonance correlate with a high value of SM?
I commented at some length earlier in this forum (which thread?) on this topic, and it is discussed in my book. Putting it succinctly, all the indicators in Sean's model pointed to a flat and smooth direct sound with smooth spatially averaged curves (listening window, early reflections, PIR and sound power), having low narrow-band variations. - i.e. smoothness. All this points to an absence of resonances more than it does to the broadband shapes of curves other than the direct sound. You can see from post 14 in this thread that resonances are revealed as bumps in the curves that are repeated in all the curves. OK? Preferences have correlated with the absence of resonances from the very earliest tests which were summarized in the 1985/86 JAES papers and my books. It is not new, and predates the model.

Watch the slide show referred to in post 14 for more detail.
 
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