Floor Speakers M10 BF Nautilus Like Tear Down

[daniboun]

This is obviously my personal opinion; as long as it doesn't violate the rules, everyone is free to post whatever they want.

So many men, so many different opinions. The wise man changes his mind, and the fool remains stubborn....

 

[daniboun]

The orientations used on the inductors there don't inspire much cofidence in the designers - nearby ones should be at right angles to each other

You mean their new Xover ? If so I agree

 

[Sokel]

The orientations used on the inductors there don't inspire much cofidence in the designers - nearby ones should be at right angles to each other

Yep:

Another knock-off of the thousands, specially B&W.
At least those are a little bigger than the miniatures I posted some time ago.

(not even a REW sweep??? )

 

[KL....]

The orientations used on the inductors there don't inspire much confidence in the designers - nearby ones should be at right angles to each other

You mean their new Xover ? If so I agree

Yep:

View attachment 516962


Another knock-off of the thousands, specially B&W.
At least those are a little bigger than the miniatures I posted some time ago.

(not even a REW sweep??? )

Thank you, @Bwaslo/@Sokel/@daniboun, how would you rearrange this XO....

 

[Audionaut]

Thank you, @Bwaslo/@Sokel/@daniboun, how would you rearrange this XO....

Why do you want to change anything?
Does anyone know the Thiele Small parameters of the drivers used in this speaker?
Has anyone you quoted measured anything on this speaker?
Without any data or measurements, how do you think it's possible to make meaningful changes to this crossover?
By magic?

 

[KL....]

Thank you, @Bwaslo/@Sokel/@daniboun, how would you rearrange this XO....

View attachment 517029

Why do you want to change anything?
Does anyone know the Thiele Small parameters of the drivers used in this speaker?
Has anyone you quoted measured anything on this speaker?
Without any data or measurements, how do you think it's possible to make meaningful changes to this crossover?
By magic?

Thank you, @Audionaut, No Change, as indicated.... Rearrange, why?.... it has been indicated as 'orientations could be improved and is not inspireing, Yep", reasonable?

The orientations used on the inductors there don't inspire much confidence in the designers - nearby ones should be at right angles to each other

Yep:

View attachment 516962

Another knock-off of the thousands, specially B&W.
At least those are a little bigger than the miniatures I posted some time ago.

(not even a REW sweep??? )

 

[KL....]

Seems that the 5th gen. have now a new crossover. I don t have the spec...
Also added Woofer / Mid / Tweeter parameter curves

Thank you, @daniboun, for the Measures....

 

[KL....]

Thank you, @daniboun, that is a nice mid driver, isn't it, and could easely be crossed over at a higher freq (1st Order), couldn't it? Assumeing those Graphs are for each Driver w/o XO then, for the mid driver, utiliseing the natural mechanical rolloff could/can allow the removel of the LF Inductor and a HF Inductor could be utilised (with the removel of the HF Cap) to allow the mid driver to be in-phase, rather then inverted, and also be in-phase with the Woofer. The mid driver would/can then cover most Music Content during playback, wouldn't it? Doing this may/might also assist the Woofers mid/upper Bass Contrast, especially as the Woofers appear to be the weaker drivers in this arrangement, and may also lift the the Woofer/LF output by 1/2dB. It would appear that a single larger Inductor could/can be utilised for the Woofers (reasonably concise calculateons would be required at about 80/100Hz, 1st Order) so that it is only performing LF duty.... an Observation and for Discussion, reasonable?

 

[daniboun]

Thank you, @daniboun, that is a nice mid driver, isn't it, and could easely be crossed over at a higher freq (1st Order), couldn't it? Assumeing those Graphs are for each Driver w/o XO then, for the mid driver, utiliseing the natural mechanical rolloff could/can allow the removel of the LF Inductor and a HF Inductor could be utilised (with the removel of the HF Cap) to allow the mid driver to be in-phase, rather then inverted, and also be in-phase with the Woofer. The mid driver would/can then cover most Music Content during playback, wouldn't it? Doing this may/might also assist the Woofers mid/upper Bass Contrast, especially as the Woofers appear to be the weaker drivers in this arrangement, and may also lift the the Woofer/LF output by 1/2dB. It would appear that a single larger Inductor could/can be utilised for the Woofers (reasonably concise calculateons would be required at about 80/100Hz, 1st Order) so that it is only performing LF duty.... an Observation and for Discussion, reasonable?

Speaking of which, I read that Troels had released a Crossover update for the BW 802. As far as I read : "Doing measurements of the 802 proved a surprising adventure, revealing quite an un-linear response as can be seen below, and I could understand my listening impressions, because around 1.5 kHz the overall level drops some 4-5 dB relative to the average midrange level." Which leads me to believe that, ultimately, the original 1st order crossover isn't quite there yet, from what I understand.
Could it be that the Chinese ultimately got wind of this information when they modified the crossover in their copy?

Source :

B&W-802-Upgrade

 

[Sokel]

Thank you, @Audionaut, No Change, as indicated.... Rearrange, why?.... it has been indicated as 'orientations could be improved and is not inspireing, Yep", reasonable?

See them in action:

Placement of coils in crossover networks

 

[KL....]

Speaking of which, I read that Troels had released a Crossover update for the BW 802. As far as I read : "Doing measurements of the 802 proved a surprising adventure, revealing quite an un-linear response as can be seen below, and I could understand my listening impressions, because around 1.5 kHz the overall level drops some 4-5 dB relative to the average midrange level." Which leads me to believe that, ultimately, the original 1st order crossover isn't quite there yet, from what I understand.
Could it be that the Chinese ultimately got wind of this information when they modified the crossover in their copy?

Source :

B&W-802-Upgrade

Thank you, @daniboun, Yes, nice read and suggests/implys my post is very reasonable and a good starting point, for the M10 BF speakers. Especially nice w/ Troels XO (for the B&W 802 S3) is the FR, that all the Drivers are in-phase, and Distortion is lower/improved (appears so, very quick read!) although a little stronger/extended lower LF/30Hz would be nice :=)

Thank you, @daniboun, that is a nice mid driver, isn't it, and could easely be crossed over at a higher freq (1st Order), couldn't it? Assumeing those Graphs are for each Driver w/o XO then, for the mid driver, utiliseing the natural mechanical rolloff could/can allow the removel of the LF Inductor and a HF Inductor could be utilised (with the removel of the HF Cap) to allow the mid driver to be in-phase, rather then inverted, and also be in-phase with the Woofer. The mid driver would/can then cover most Music Content during playback, wouldn't it? Doing this may/might also assist the Woofers mid/upper Bass Contrast, especially as the Woofers appear to be the weaker drivers in this arrangement, and may also lift the the Woofer/LF output by 1/2dB. It would appear that a single larger Inductor could/can be utilised for the Woofers (reasonably concise calculateons would be required at about 80/100Hz, 1st Order) so that it is only performing LF duty.... an Observation and for Discussion, reasonable?

 

[KL....]

Hi Dani, the M10 BF and B&W 802 S3 are quite different, aren't they, where the (more visable) differences are....

• Bass Enclosure.... M10 BF is shaped like crossing the B&W 803 d4 with the B&W 802 S3
• Bass Vent.... M10 BF is downward like the B&W 803 d4, B&W 802 S3 is forward
• Mid Enclosure.... M10 BF is shaped like the B&W 803 d4, B&W 802 S3 is a Box
• Tweeter Enclosure.... M10 BF is shaped like the B&W 803 d4, B&W 802 S3 is a small Panel/Baffle
• Consideration....
  • What is the LF for the M10 BF/Mid Enclosure w/ the M10 BF/Mid Driver? The Fs appears to be about 70/75Hz.
  • What is the Impedance/R at the intended XO Freqs, for the M10 BF Mid/Tweeter XO and Woofer/Mid XO? The graphs are probablely sufficient....

 

[KL....]

Hi Dani, the M10 BF utilises 2x downward Vent tubes. These Vent tubes should match the Vent length for each Woofer driver, for the internal Cabinet dimensions. Why 2x downward Vent tubes, is this a good approach....

• Yes, this is a good a approach, why?.... 2x downward Vent tubes, as positioned into/through the Base/Floor, will/should act like a closed H Brace which will/should tend to diffuse/prevent SWR, where SWR effects can sound like/lead to distorted, cancelled/nulling, and/or muffled/muddy Bass and the resulting Decay can Disrupt/Corrupt the Mids/Highs dispersed into the Room, reasonable?
• This is a good, why?.... should SWR occur then it will be transfered to the Bass Board/Platform and dispersed into the Room, as NL Distortion/Noise, won't it? So, the closed H Brace effect will help ensure that only the Helmholtz Wave/Resonance is transfered to the Bass Board/Platform and dispersed into the Room, reasonable?
  • Note that 4x downward Vent tubes (+/cross pattern) should/would be better to prevent/control SWR, reasonable, although Time/Phase Domain/Reflections would require consideration?
• Considerations....
  • Can the Helmholtz Wave/Resonance transfer to the Bass Board/Platform be improved, to allow stronger/deeper Bass to be transfered to the Bass Board/Platform (to 30Hz, rather than 45/50Hz with a slow decline/roll off)?
  • Look at/Check the internal Braceing and how it has been implemented. Should be some photos/videos to allow....

 

[KL....]

Than you, @daniboun, that mid driver is nice enough for me to change the XO to 1st order & XO Freqs, if possible, for a bit of fun and discussion? I will (initially) draw something rough for your opinion/s although note that there will be some guessing as we do not know the T/S parameters but we do have the Driver graphs (apparently), XO freqs 300Hz/2.7Khz, and XO diagram. Hope that is ok....
Mid Driver is apparently like this....

Current XO appears to be something/apparently like this....

 

[daniboun]

Than you, @daniboun, that mid driver is nice enough for me to change the XO to 1st order & XO Freqs, if possible, for a bit of fun and discussion? I will (initially) draw something rough for your opinion/s although note that there will be some guessing as we do not know the T/S parameters but we do have the Driver graphs (apparently), XO freqs 300Hz/2.7Khz, and XO diagram. Hope that is ok....
Mid Driver is apparently like this....
View attachment 519527
Current XO appears to be something/apparently like this....
View attachment 519516

Picture of the mid driver but I did not find any related info about it....

 

[KL....]

Picture of the mid driver but I did not find any related info about it....

Thank you, @daniboun, that is a small magnet structure, isn't it? Do you know if it is neodymium or (even) alnico?