Floating Points' Sunflower speaker system

[rwr]

Floating Points has build a nice system, which is covered by Resident Advisor in this article: https://ra.co/features/4457

I'm going to Dekmantel in August, so I'm really curious to experience this first hand.

 

[kemmler3D]

My first inclination is to scoff at the enormous lengths they're going to, to do things with retro designs that are more straightforward to do with modern setups and DSP. But it seems like their approach is really to use hi-fi in a broader sense as an artistic tool. And I think that's actually pretty cool. They're not trying to aim for a good preference score, they're aiming for a cool concert experience and diving into the details of audio reproduction as part of that... You have to respect a DJ or producer that gets so involved with the craft.

 

[Curvature]

My first inclination is to scoff at the enormous lengths they're going to, to do things with retro designs that are more straightforward to do with modern setups and DSP. But it seems like their approach is really to use hi-fi in a broader sense as an artistic tool. And I think that's actually pretty cool. They're not trying to aim for a good preference score, they're aiming for a cool concert experience and diving into the details of audio reproduction as part of that... You have to respect a DJ or producer that gets so involved with the craft.

There is some audiophile nonsense informing at least part of the art and thinking. In a Red Bull interview Shepherd has said that the studio mixing console (or maybe it was a DJ mixing console) is one of the main things that holds back sound quality, so he commissioned an enormous Class A amplified beast of a custom console.

It's never purely an artistic conceit. Other things are always mixed into the motivation.

 

[kemmler3D]

There is some audiophile nonsense informing at least part of the art and thinking. In a Red Bull interview Shepherd has said that the studio mixing console (or maybe it was a DJ mixing console) is one of the main things that holds back sound quality, so he commissioned an enormous Class A amplified beast of a custom console.

It's never purely an artistic conceit. Other things are always mixed into the motivation.

Definitely some nonsense and superstition in there (supertweeters...) but in this case I don't mind it. This doesn't look like snake oil vendors or defenders thereof, it's people going out of their way to share a special experience via hi-fi without ulterior motives I can see. So in this case I'm not that bothered by the nonsense since it all seems to be in good faith. If they waste some effort on the mixing console (or absorbing bass with giant piles of rock wool) I'm not going to go in and issue a citation from the measurement police.

 

[Curvature]

Definitely some nonsense and superstition in there (supertweeters...) but in this case I don't mind it. This doesn't look like snake oil vendors or defenders thereof, it's people going out of their way to share a special experience via hi-fi without ulterior motives I can see. So in this case I'm not that bothered by the nonsense since it all seems to be in good faith. If they waste some effort on the mixing console (or absorbing bass with giant piles of rock wool) I'm not going to go in and issue a citation from the measurement police.

I'd disagree. The whole thing is cool. The soundsystem, the music, everything. That's not really at issue.

There're currents of conservatism in this art about the old masters having it figured out and modern times showing signs of decline. That's in part what's motivating the selection of drivers.

Shepherd says:

People will come and play and say, "I've played that tune a hundred times, but I've never heard that element of the vocals or that melody line."

People in the crowd say they hear tunes in a different way. That's because we've gone into detail on the signal chain—from the turntable to the mixer, amplifier, speakers and cabinets. It's about giving people the most in-depth appreciation of something they already love.

...

It's completely analogue and sounds phenomenal.

I'd also bet that, given enough time, particularly since dance music festivals are far more mainstream than they were 20 or 30 years ago, we'll see the rise of hifi PA companies. Arguably some of that exists already (Funktion-One).

There is a lot to say about the godawful PA systems at a lot of parties, so I'd be very glad to see deliberate effort at selecting better components.

 

[vsch]

Maybe I’m missing something, but at the outdoor EDM festivals I’ve attended, PA systems from companies like d&b and L-Acoustics sounded phenomenal — distortion-free, with huge SPL and tight, clean bass. That’s probably thanks to the lack of reflections outdoors, smart EQ, and cardioid subs. To my ears, those setups sound pretty “hi-fi.”

In tents or untreated spaces, though, I’d expect pretty much anything to struggle. So I’m curious: is the Sunflower system — especially in a tent — more of an artistic/experimental concept than a solution aimed at acoustic performance? That wouldn’t be a bad thing at all, but I’d genuinely like to understand if it offers any real acoustic advantages over traditional designs.

 

[Chr1]

Indeed. Seems to me to just be the PA equivalent of the folks who are into retro hifi gear. Nothing wrong per se, but it won't be as high fidelity as SOTA modern gear. Good chance that it's a lot more expensive too.

It's funny because all of the PAs it's modelled on : Paradise Garage or whatever, where usually the modern SOTA at the time
Like L'Acoustics or whatever now.

Kinda cool and funky looking tho.

 

[Ktacos]

I will stick to FP's music, the article is just full of nonsense. It certainly provides a cool aesthetic but man, a lot of the stuff they mention being problems were figured out by other companies.

"Low frequencies are very long. Really low bass, say 100 Hz, is ten feet long, so you need massive speakers to efficiently reproduce those waves."

Since when is 100hz very low and requires a large box to reproduce?

 

[Heinrich]

From the article "SS: Seeking perfection should be the ultimate goal."

Besides the other talking in this article, starting from the social role of "music", I doubt it. They fly a bit high, don't they?

For engineers 'perfection' is not the goal, but a 'good enough', see the Saturn V that brought people to the moon. Perfection fails by definition.

 

[Keith_W]

I will stick to FP's music, the article is just full of nonsense. It certainly provides a cool aesthetic but man, a lot of the stuff they mention being problems were figured out by other companies.

"Low frequencies are very long. Really low bass, say 100 Hz, is ten feet long, so you need massive speakers to efficiently reproduce those waves."

Since when is 100hz very low and requires a large box to reproduce?

If you want to reproduce 100Hz at very high SPL's for outdoor concerts, you need a large box.

 

[Ktacos]

If you want to reproduce 100Hz at very high SPL's for outdoor concerts, you need a large box.

One needs to define outdoor concert scale and high SPL, but there are a ton of basic two way PA speakers that can hit 130db+ @ 100hz. I've done plenty of 300-500 cap outdoor events with just four 12" two ways and sub with the tops handling 100hz. Those are hardly big boxes, easy 1 man carries. 100hz isn't low in world with powersoft m drive subs that will do 140db+ at 20hz and it's still smaller than most typical 2x18" pa subs.

 

[Curvature]

One needs to define outdoor concert scale and high SPL, but there are a ton of basic two way PA speakers that can hit 130db+ @ 100hz. I've done plenty of 300-500 cap outdoor events with just four 12" two ways and sub with the tops handling 100hz. Those are hardly big boxes, easy 1 man carries. 100hz isn't low in world with powersoft m drive subs that will do 140db+ at 20hz and it's still smaller than most typical 2x18" pa subs.

Are we talking measured SPL or specs? At 20 meters SPLs fall quick.

I think it's clear Shepherd doesn't have a strong background in audio. He seriously studied science (pharmacology) before shifting to music full-time as far as I know. I would have thought that would have disposed him to psychoacoustics and engineering, since pharmacology requires making drugs and then strict rounds of clinical testing before approval. But there are plenty of examples of audio engineers who have never looked seriously into human hearing, either.

 

[Heinrich]

I think it's clear Shepherd ... . He seriously studied science (pharmacology) ... I would have thought that would have disposed him to psychoacoustics and engineering, since pharmacology requires making drugs ...

He's a good match for the Sunflower event, me thinks.

 

[Palmer]

Looks a lot like what Richard Long, and Associates - did back in the 80ies, a long, long time ago.