Flat pack speakers and veneering

[Blue Rider Design]

Hi,

I am a woodworker who doesn't know a lot about audio and I was wondering how much interest there would be if I picked up a high quality flat pack speaker (leaving the electrical / speakers themselves up to the audio knowledgeable customers) and did a high quality veneer job on them?

I don't mind learning more about audio, finding good flat pack speakers , etc. However, I'll never be as knowledgeable as the ones how are highly passionate about the subject.

I also don't mind the idea of someone buying whatever they want, having me veneer them and send them back either re-flat packed or fully assembled. It's a lot easier veneer flat sheets than assembled speakers.

Anyway, just feeling this world out. Seeing what people want or are interested in. In other words, do people want high quality veneer work on flat pack speakers?

Thanks and cheers,

 

[Godataloss]

Cool idea. What do you think you'd have to charge for a bookshelf size speaker to be veneered in walnut for example?

 

[Blue Rider Design]

If it was standard veneer (wrap around the speaker, match grain) I would do it at $500 / pair in labor plus cost of veneer and shipping. That's flat packed to me and back. Finish could change the price depending on what the customer wanted as well, but if I can use my own technique that I already use (Rubio Monocoat oil / wax mixture that is on the flat sheen side) I would include that in the $500. If the customer wanted a more durable (but harder to repair) finish, I can have it sprayed too.

I'd have to charge more to assemble and ship out assembled, I doubt that would be too hard / too expensive on the labor side. We'll have to figure out shipping (which has to get paid either way: via you directly or thru me indirectly).

 

[Godataloss]

That's not hateful for a veneered and fully finished speaker. I've refinished some furniture and speakers in the past. I've also veneered some receiver cases. I know how time consuming it is. The problem you will run into here is, most of the members prefer their speakers to be as plastic and ugly as is possible to achieve with modern engineering.

 

[Blue Rider Design]

That's a good price for labor. It takes some time and skill to make it happen for sure.

Refinishing or veneering a speaker that was pre-built would be different and more difficult (read: expensive), but do-able.

 

[Blue Rider Design]

How did you re-finish them? Sand them and re-coat or re-paint them?

 

[Blue Rider Design]

When I was researching this topic, I saw a lot of questions on assembly, etc and I thought "I work with tools all day, esp woodworking tools and have no fear of correctly assembling these speakers and I could also definitely veneer these too"

I guess it sort of removes the 'DIY' aspect from the assembly perspective, but I think it adds value in the complete product perspective and the end user would definitely still have complete control over the audio element which I think is the main goal (if the person is less concerned about solely saving money) of an audiophile / passionate audio person.

 

[Smitty2k1]

$500 to finish the speaker pair probably would put the price range into high quality pre-made speaker territory so I'm not sure it would appeal to the DIY crowd. Im your target audience - I don't have tools to do the cabinets myself AND I want a high quality finish. However, adding $500 to the cost of any DIY speaker means I could just buy something that performs equally well pre-made from a well known manufacturer.

Look at Jim Salk's offerings. He does his own speakers and makes high quality cabinets for other DIY designs like the Philharmonic BMR. Should give you a reference for what seems reasonable for the market.

 

[Blue Rider Design]

Thanks for the reply.

I started to see two sides to the DIY'er: 1) the DIY'r who's sole objective is saving money and 2) a DIY'r who loves the nerding out / geeking out aspect and challenges themselves to build the speaker they specifically want.

So, out of the gate, I'm assuming I will get no business with a DIY'r with purely financial reasons to buy flat pack.

But, I don't see why someone on the other side of the coin wouldn't be interested...

Did I read the room wrong? Is this a possibility?

The reality is that I build furniture and do construction for a living already, but was recently injured (full rupture achilles) and I'm trying to find other ways to create income. Just seeing what opportunities are out there.

 

[Smitty2k1]

Thanks for the reply.

I started to see two sides to the DIY'er: 1) the DIY'r who's sole objective is saving money and 2) a DIY'r who loves the nerding out / geeking out aspect and challenges themselves to build the speaker they specifically want.

So, out of the gate, I'm assuming I will get no business with a DIY'r with purely financial reasons to buy flat pack.

But, I don't see why someone on the other side of the coin wouldn't be interested...

Did I read the room wrong? Is this a possibility?

The reality is that I build furniture and do construction for a living already, but was recently injured (full rupture achilles) and I'm trying to find other ways to create income. Just seeing what opportunities are out there.

I think that in general speakers are boring black boxes and am always excited to find speakers that LOOK good. You're right some DIY people are doing DIY purely for function, but I think those tend to be the people that are OK with plain black boxes (I use the term black box to really mean MDF with paint or a basic vinyl wrap). Thus you have people who are only concerned with performance or only concerned with price.

Where you may find a middle ground is offering cabinets for a special speaker design that is essentially DIY only because no major manufacturers do it in that size/configuration/technology. People that want that specific configuration may then always be willing to pay for the premium finish.

Again, Jim Salk is the person that I can think of that is already doing this. I'm sure there is room for more, I just don't know what other advice to offer. Either way, I understand fine woodworking is a serious skill and that the time and materials definitely merit the high price tag so I look forward to seeing some of your work!

 

[ryanosaur]

If what I saw up top was misunderstood, please forgive, but you would need to fully assemble the cabinets, not just send veneered flat packs back and forth.
Is there value in this? Yes.
But it will be a niche market of people that want something from the DIY community that they just don't have the gumption to DIY.

A great example would be Subwoofers or unique Speakers that are not already being offered like the Salk finished BMR Monitors.

If you are not familiar with Leland at Speaker Hardware, I think he offers the services as well.

Marketing yourself to the crowd and not relying on this as a major income stream would be a necessity, I fear. Hell, I walked up to a local cabinet shop one day and asked if they would Paint or Dye a finished cabinet, and they said Sure... we'd charge based on surface area but will not take responsibility for "finish flaws" do to the quality of work you bring us.
Dunno how many people do that, but I have the benefit of a space where I can build, at least.

Anyway, It s very cool topic. It would be nice to have an option out there that can do finishes like Salk without having to order a Speaker from him.
Mind, I have a Speaker built and finished by Jim's team in my Phil 3s:

Don't give up on the idea... Spread it around on the other forums and add it to your website. Come to think about it, I had a helluva time finding Leland's site for Speaker Hardware, even after accidentally stumbling on it once or twice. Figure out how to build and Ship the finished product. Jim uses Roadrunner Freight for most of his stuff, and he custom boxes a lot, too.

 

[Blue Rider Design]

Ah, I think I understand more now. I went to his website and all I could find was what looked like an audiophile making speakers.... i.e. another speaker manufcturer.

But, I see. He also builds a pre-designed cab that he finishes nicely.

Which, this is close to one of my original ideas: use a pre-set cabinet + hardware that everyone likes and finish it. However, since I'm not an audiophile, I was thinking of even further simplifying (if possible) and building a cab ONLY (knowing nothing about hardware) -OR- having the customer send me what they want and I do the rest.

I'm certainly not afraid of project management so if a person knows what they want, but it will require buying hardware from A, cabinet from B, etc, I'm comfortable with taking on that level.

 

[ryanosaur]

The big part of a service like this is to define what you are offering and determine the level at which you want to participate in the final build. I will warn you, of course, that you will be introduced to a slew of very persnickety and particular people asking you to do everything from installing Damping material and expensive Binding Posts or (gawd forbid) tube connectors...
I think it is reasonable to stop at box construction and finishing, but installing a finished crossover and some wiring would be a nice touch (and possibly a must depending on the cabinet and parts. Also, installing hardware for feet, outriggers, platforms and wall or ceiling mounting should be accounted for in the finishing process.
There is nothing like the gut check moment of taking a Drill to a finished Speaker and hoping you don't destroy it when adding threaded inserts for feet or a mounting bracket.

You can see, I think, how this complicates quickly.

Another site you may be interested in perusing is Troels Gravesen's site so you can see the steps he is doing as he builds the cabinets he is designing and working on. His XOs are usually installed externally, and some of his builds include plate amps for Hybrid-Active/Passive designs.

I'm intrigued to see what you decide to do and offer, and I hope you include info here as you move along.

By the way, if you did not stumble on it, you should check out the Gallery on Salk's site, where you can peruse photos of all the exotic stuff he has done. One of my favorites is the Spalted Beech Veneer.

Cheers!

 

[Smitty2k1]

Ah, I think I understand more now. I went to his website and all I could find was what looked like an audiophile making speakers.... i.e. another speaker manufcturer.

But, I see. He also builds a pre-designed cab that he finishes nicely.

Which, this is close to one of my original ideas: use a pre-set cabinet + hardware that everyone likes and finish it. However, since I'm not an audiophile, I was thinking of even further simplifying (if possible) and building a cab ONLY (knowing nothing about hardware) -OR- having the customer send me what they want and I do the rest.

I'm certainly not afraid of project management so if a person knows what they want, but it will require buying hardware from A, cabinet from B, etc, I'm comfortable with taking on that level.

You could also find some well know speaker designers that sell or publish their designs and try to build cabinets to their spec so that they list your name and contact on their website as a resource for folks that don't want to fab their own cabinets.

 

[ryanosaur]

^
This is a good idea too. When Rick Craig was with us and Selah Audio was working, he had a partner who did the cabinet work for him.

 

[Blue Rider Design]

Thanks.

Yes, I would totally be capable and prepared to have someone say 'give me all these things with a walnut burl finish' and I would be happy to comply. That would include feet, whatever connectors, etc. The customer gets it and they have speakers delivered just like they would have from a speaker manufacturer.

The overall point being that my skill set is not testing and analyzing sound quality with different hardware, etc which is a very niche skillset that would be needed to become a speaker manufacturer... something I do not intend to become.

I've also heard that other materials besides MDF actually sound better, but nothing is more economical to machine and purchase than MDF.. which opens up a whole 'nother level of what I could provide: very specific and unique speaker cabs for a discerning person that knows what they want and 'somehow' has the plans for the cabs (to cut on a CNC).

An end goal for me would to up the ante and do some actual artistic veneer work (not solid of one wood) and add an additional markup.

I really appreciate all the feedback. I'll get some pricing nailed down.

Is there an appropriate way to advertise on this forum? I know people don't want to see every post be an advertisement..

 

[ryanosaur]

Uncertain about advertising on any forums...
One of the best things to do though is get it up on your business website and work with somebody to optimize that page for search traffic. That way, people will be steered toward you, and you can add your site link...
I don't think Buckeye has a website last time I checked, but he is registered as a manufacturer or something like that and even has a thread dedicated to his Amp builds, here.

 

[Godataloss]

How did you re-finish them? Sand them and re-coat or re-paint them?

I prefer an oil finish. I mix my own. I don't own any furniture that is painted nor would I buy anything and paint it and consider it 'refinished'.

 

[woofersus]

There are a couple of companies that primarily sell speaker kits for semi-DIY like GR Research and they've developed their own following of people who want those specific speakers for value or preference reasons and would be willing to spend extra for really nice cabinets. Others have offered that service for such kits on and off but it's mostly hobbyists who can produce a pair a month or something like that. Some companies offering build services have come and gone over the years, too. I think there's still an available niche there if you're interested in producing and assembling the cabinets.

There are also DIY folks with some design chops but no carpentry skill whatsoever, and they may not be designing a bookshelf speaker that compares with mass market ~$750-$1500 speakers where the value proposition gets iffy. There are plenty of higher end DIY designs that are more likely to be compared to $5000 and up commercial designs and there's plenty of room there to pay for nice cabinets and still have good value.

Finally, the high-end audio industry (especially speakers) is full of small operations started as side-hustles or semi-retirement occupations or just on a small enough scale that they can can design expensive stuff but have obstacles in manufacturing it in small batches. If you could build really nice cabinets to a design at a reasonable cost, I think you may find some people looking to commercialize their designs who might be interested in that service as well.

 

[abdo123]

I think you’re much better off learning some of the gimmicks of speaker construction and sell fully built and veneered speakers.

The current model is too wasteful and niche. This way you can offer customers stuff like choice of wood and connectors .etc instead of just more or less painting something that doesn’t really need to be painted: