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First Watt J2 for Bi-Amping Revel or Dali Speakers?

dped90

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I'm looking to audition the Revel 226be and 228be and comparable Dali floor standing speakers for the front pair of a 5.1 system. As I might have access to the First Watt J2 amp I wondered how it might sound driving the tweets and mids of these speakers vs. say some of the best 300B SET amps? I suspect that most 300B SETs would trounce this otherwise respectable Class A amp. But has anyone actually tried this? Also, would the J2's warm up take longer than the 300B SETs to sound its best? Please share thoughts, experiences.
 
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MaxBuck

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With all the excellent Class D amps available that can drive these speakers with ease, I'm curious why you are playing around with tubes.

If you like the sound produced by a particular tube amp, fine, but that means you are looking for something that suits your preferences rather than something that's objectively good. Also, the interactions between speakers' reactive loads with tube amps aren't easily predictable.
 

dwkdnvr

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Yes, this is really a question for a different forum. Nobody here is going to suggest using a 300B or First Watt amp in any circumstances where you care about measured performance.

If you want to use one of those amps for some reason, it's going to be for non-audio reasons. Which is OK if that's what you're looking for, but in that case you don't need external validation.
 

fpitas

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I use the J2 to drive horns. They take a whole 20mW at full blast, and the distortion is negligible (about 0.008%, if the graph can be believed). However, you'll need a lot more than 20mW. If the thing ever breaks (it's 12 years now) I'll go to a Purifi or NCORE class D.
 
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Ageve

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I'm looking to audition the Revel 226be and 228be and comparable Dali floor standing speakers for the front pair of a 5.1 system. As I might have access to the First Watt J2 amp I wondered how it might sound driving the tweets and mids of these speakers vs. say a some of the best 300B SET amps? I suspect that most 300B SETs would trounce this otherwise respectable Class A amp. But has anyone actually tried this? Also, would the J2's warm up take longer than the 300B SETs to sound its best? Please share thoughts, experiences.

F226Be and F228Be are dynamic low distortion speakers with a power handling of 200W RMS (F226Be) and 350W RMS (F228Be).

Using a low power, high distortion amp is not ideal. Bi-amping won't improve the sound. It could potentially make it worse, though.
 
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dped90

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With all the excellent Class D amps available that can drive these speakers with ease, I'm curious why you are playing around with tubes.

If you like the sound produced by a particular tube amp, fine, but that means you are looking for something that suits your preferences rather than something that's objectively good. Also, the interactions between speakers' reactive loads with tube amps aren't easily predictable.
"Playing around with tubes" wrongly assumes that all tube amp designs will sound the same. They often won't, be they push-pull Class AB, single-ended Class A, have 300B, 845 or other tubes output stages-or any of numerous input and driver stage tubes. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/input-tubes-for-300b.158499/

Solid state Class A amp designers have suggested that if such tube amps exhibit substantially higher distortion levels than other (Class AB, A, D) amps and yet are often aurally more pleasing to countless listeners than it may be due not only to percentages differences of the kinds of distortion those tubes tend to generate but also the amount of and how corrective feedback is applied, power supply decoupling techniques, the quality and minimizing the number of passive components and other factors which designers of expensive tube and solid state amps may be more apt to optimize.

As for subjective reactions to speakers and amps, there are countless ears at many forums, including this one, who've heard way more hardware than I'll ever hear. And many, if not most of them, often can't help but point out differences between the sound of speakers, amps and other hardware, even after controlling for obvious variables. Case in point: Some at this thread note what they found strong sonic differences between the tweeters in the Revel 226/228be tweeter and those in one or more Harbeth speakers. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/revel-performa-f228-be-speaker-thoughts

Naturally, I would have to audition at least one Harbeth model vs. one these Revels to decide for myself whether those "harsh", "cold/analytical" or unpleasantly "revealing" claims about these Revel beryllium tweeters are evident to my ears and playing my source material. However, if they mostly are true, but if I end up being otherwise thrilled with what I hear from the Revel's tweeters, midrange, imaging and soundstage (and maybe price too), what might make the berylliums sound as nice as the Harbeths likely do?

Unless some amplifier X, (which I might never find) along with properly loading the Revels, has some special way with the tweeters to make even Harbeth speaker lovers swoon, bi-amping has long proved to be the best sounding way of driving almost any speaker system. In a three way speaker system, biamping (or still better performing triamping) eliminates almost all frequency response interactions and all distortions otherwise extant with passive crossovers. Thus, in this case, the Revels' midbass/woofers could be electronically crossed (or optionally with the passive network) and driven by an appropriately muscular Class AB (or perhaps Class D) amp. And the tweeter/midrange electronically crossed and driven with a 300 SET, J2 or other low power Class A power amp tube or solid state amp. With the correctly calculated changes for impedance matching there will be very little if any audible interactions with the any of those amps and the midrange driver, and likely far less with the tweeters. And I'm betting that most ears would find those tweeters sounding sweeter with those amps vs. most Class D amp designs.

Yes, this is really a question for a different forum. Nobody here is going to suggest using a 300B or First Watt amp in any circumstances where you care about measured performance.

If you want to use one of those amps for some reason, it's going to be for non-audio reasons. Which is OK if that's what you're looking for, but in that case you don't need external validation.

First, I had no idea that there existed a forum with an apparent "bias" :) towards Class D amps. But they certainly are no more popular among audiophiles than another amplifier designs. As for measured performance, as explained, electronic crossovers, properly implemented, result in very low measured levels of distortion and other audible anomalies. Just ask powered Genelec and Neuman users here, of which there are plenty, and who seem endlessly pleased with the sound.

Likewise, well designed tube amp typically measure great and sound superb, however unfortunately super expensive those amps AND replacement tubes-especially 300Bs-often are. First Watt amps likely measure even better, and no tubes to replace. Yes, Class A amps are inefficient and get can very warm. But my listening sessions don’t typically extend much beyond two hours straight, after which I would power it off, so the trade offs would be good for the one small Class A amp that I’d be using for bi-amping the tweets/mids.

What was evident to me at this forum is that Revel speakers seem popular. And far from seeking any approval I was seeking owners of 226be/228be speakers-and/or other speakers with beryllium tweeters-who might share any experiences they have had with bi-amping them, and perhaps also doing so using some of the amps in question.
 
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nerdoldnerdith

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I'm looking to audition the Revel 226be and 228be and comparable Dali floor standing speakers for the front pair of a 5.1 system. As I might have access to the First Watt J2 amp I wondered how it might sound driving the tweets and mids of these speakers vs. say some of the best 300B SET amps? I suspect that most 300B SETs would trounce this otherwise respectable Class A amp. But has anyone actually tried this? Also, would the J2's warm up take longer than the 300B SETs to sound its best? Please share thoughts, experiences.
Just get a Purifi based amp and never look back
 
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dped90

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I use the J2 to drive horns. They take a whole 20mW at full blast, and the distortion is negligible (about 0.008%, if the graph can be believed). However, you'll need a lot more than 20mW. If the thing ever breaks (it's 12 years now) I'll go to a Purifi or NCORE class D.

Wow, it would seem that your set up is likely the ideal testimonial for a solid state amp driving beryllium TAD horn drivers-even a Class A SS amp. And the J2 too, as it happens. You bi-amp but use passive crossovers? If yes, why not electronic?

Aside from bi-wiring, which seems to be a trivial pursuit https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/bi-wiring-from-amplifier-to-loudspeaker , the manual implies that bi-amping the Revels can only be done with external passive or electronic crossovers.

Only once did I ever hear of a First Watt amp breaking, though that was a super hot running Aleph, so likely no chance here for J2 vs. Class D amp comparisons.


 
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dwkdnvr

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First, I had no idea that there existed a forum with an apparent "bias" :) towards Class D amps. But they certainly are no more popular among audiophiles than another amplifier designs. As for measured performance, as explained, electronic crossovers, properly implemented, result in very low measured levels of distortion and other audible anomalies. Just ask powered Genelec and Neuman users here, of which there are plenty, and who seem endlessly pleased with the sound.

Likewise, well designed tube amp typically measure great and sound superb, however unfortunately super expensive those amps AND replacement tubes-especially 300Bs-often are. First Watt amps likely measure even better, and no tubes to replace. Yes, Class A amps are inefficient and get can very warm. But my listening sessions don’t typically extend much beyond two hours straight, after which I would power it off, so the trade offs would be good for the one small Class A amp that I’d be using for bi-amping the tweets/mids.
It's not about Class D, it's just about striving for accuracy. The Class A/AB Benchmark AHB is still one of the very best measuring amps Amir has ever tested, and other A/AB designs like the Neurochrome amps have scored very well too.

You're simply incorrect about tube amps and the Pass/First Watt designs. They make no aspirations to accuracy - they sell themselves on either simplicity or nostalgia. There are good reasons to do something like put together a vinyl/tube or vinyl/Pass setup if that's your jam. But accuracy isn't one of those reasons, and that is what folks look for around here. Other forums are more invested in the romance of audio and audio gear, and are better places to discuss a 300B or J2 based system.
 
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dped90

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F226Be and F228Be are dynamic low distortion speakers with a power handling of 200W RMS (F226Be) and 350W RMS (F228Be).

Using a low power, high distortion amp is not ideal. Bi-amping won't improve the sound. It could potentially make it worse, though.

Does this mean that using this amp to drive those tweets/mids https://www.stereophile.com/content/first-watt-j2-power-amplifier-specifications and something like this amp to drive the midbass/woofers
https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no331-power-amplifier-specifications that I couldn't then play those speakers at moderate to low levels and not have full frequency response down to at least 50Hz?

In any case, my Rythmik F12 subs can easily handle the bottom two octaves.

AND ample soundstage size?
 
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dped90

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I use the J2 to drive horns. They take a whole 20mW at full blast, and the distortion is negligible (about 0.008%, if the graph can be believed). However, you'll need a lot more than 20mW. If the thing ever breaks (it's 12 years now) I'll go to a Purifi or NCORE class D.

Yes, I am indeed screwed as even with bi-amping the J2 amp’s output into 4 ohms won't deliver the low distortion performance you get at 8 ohms, and would likely clip not much above 12 watts.

https://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/unit/td-2002-e.html

https://www.stereophile.com/content/first-watt-j2-power-amplifier-measurements

I will ask Revel for the combined impedance of tweeter and midrange drivers when bi-amping, but it’s likely to be little more than 4 ohms, if that much.

Certainly, there are low power but more impedance friendly Class A amps for this application.
 

fpitas

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Yes, I am indeed screwed as even with bi-amping the J2 amp’s output into 4 ohms won't deliver the low distortion performance you get at 8 ohms, and would likely clip not much above 12 watts.

https://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/unit/td-2002-e.html

https://www.stereophile.com/content/first-watt-j2-power-amplifier-measurements

I will ask Revel for the combined impedance of tweeter and midrange drivers when bi-amping, but it’s likely to be little more than 4 ohms, if that much.

Certainly, there are low power but more impedance friendly Class A amps for this application.
Maybe. But I agree with the guys above, and even for horns class D is best. Modern class D is just better than the old class A on normal THD, and does not have the crossover distortion that even modern AB amps still have to a tiny degree. And that's ignoring the inefficiency of class A and all the heat it generates, not to mention the cost premium for most class A amps. There's a good reason you don't see real powerful ones.
 
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fpitas

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I'll add, a friend went down the class D road for his big DIY horn speakers using Hypex UcD modules. They are active speakers, with a separate amp for woofers and horns. I have listened very critically to his system and can't find fault. Modern class D has only become objectively better.
 
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MaxBuck

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"Playing around with tubes" wrongly assumes that all tube amp designs will sound the same.
Actually, quite the opposite. Solid state amps generally sound alike unless something is very wrong in their design, if operated below clipping. Tubes generally all sound different, and who knows which unique distortion pattern you personally are going to prefer?
 
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dped90

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It's not about Class D, it's just about striving for accuracy. The Class A/AB Benchmark AHB is still one of the very best measuring amps Amir has ever tested, and other A/AB designs like the Neurochrome amps have scored very well too.

You're simply incorrect about tube amps and the Pass/First Watt designs. They make no aspirations to accuracy - they sell themselves on either simplicity or nostalgia. There are good reasons to do something like put together a vinyl/tube or vinyl/Pass setup if that's your jam. But accuracy isn't one of those reasons, and that is what folks look for around here. Other forums are more invested in the romance of audio and audio gear, and are better places to discuss a 300B or J2 based system.
Actually, I abandoned analog sources a very long time ago, for all the reasons most would here at this forum. The Benchmark AHB power amp deservedly got rave reviews and obviously does have a very effective way of reducing crossover distortion, but as shown here at no point does it ever actually operate in Class A.
 
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