First post and suggestions for upgrade

[Eeyoredave]

Hi there, been a long time reader of this forum and appreciate the discussion and opinions here that have helped shape my recent audio purchases. At the moment, I have the LS50 powered by the Hypex Ncore 400. They are fed by a Luxman DA250 DAC and the source is an Auralic Aries Mini. There is also a sub, Kef Q400b that is using the stereo RCA from the Luxman. Had this setup for over a year.
I have no room treatments (and it’s not an option) and no tweaks of any kind, but really enjoying the music. Having the upgrade urge and wanted to hear of any opinions from other forum users. Note where I live I have very limited access to any kind of decent audio store and in home trials are not possible. My broad questions are:

1. Am I wasting time and money seeking an upgrade if I am happy with my system?
2. At what point is there diminishing returns?
3. If an upgrade were to be considered, what would be some suggestions?

In the context of the above questions I have been contemplating D&D 8C, Genelec 8361 and even a pair of SVS SB1000 with an active crossover.

We listen to a range of music and also have a Naim Atom and Wharfedale Linton. I found that combo not as good, and the Atom lacks the power to drive the LS50. My primary goal is to enjoy music and limit the amount of gear.
Welcome your thoughts!

 

[FrantzM]

Welcome!
It is not proper to have your post with such difficult to answer questions >>>NOT

Question 1 and 2 are, seriously, difficult to answer. Because it is a matter of opinions.
Mine for 1 and 2:
1) About wasting time and money. NO. it is worthwhile, I believe more accurate system enhance the appreciation and the enjoyment of music.
2) Diminishing returns: it depends of the component/gear and the functionalities needed. If you simply need a transparent DAC, $150. If you need more functionalities in you DAC for example, that it be also a headphone amplifier, a preamp, a parametric EQ and balanced ouput, the RME ADI-2 FS is it. It is a superlative product and you will spend more but not have anything more. It sits at the summum of performance and has an extraordinary performance to price ratio, perhaps the highest in the gear reviewed here.

Now for question 3:
The speaker systems you are looking into are close to endgame, and, these are complete systems with their DAC, DSP and amplifiers. They only need a source with some kind of volume control on it...

The Dutch and Dutch is quasi-full range: It is able to reproduce in a domestic environment, at the listening position, the full range of audible frequencies, in other words, they can do 20 to 20,000 Hz within plus or minus 3 dB. Some people people have measured in their listening rooms at a phenomenal + or - 2 dB !!!!!. The 8C can reproduce 30 Hz at 105 dB under the same conditions. That is loud , room shaking intestinal reactions provoking bass.. . THis requires the use of a free software REW, at least a measurement microphone such as the inexpensive (circa $100) miniDSP Umik-1, and a some learning, sweats, questions on forum or perhaps the help of D&D themselves... It is a beautiful speaker IMHO and to repeat a comlete package, It can become a ROon endpoint, etc. as I said it, endgame... See Review by Mitchco (Click here)

or

The Genelec 8361. Close to full range and as good as they get, Superlative performance, almost full range. See review by Amir (Click here)... Genelec however has a GLM which is a software hardware combo that works with Genelec speakers to linearize them. It also work with the (often expensive) Genelec subwoofers but not others'. It is a big , purpose looking box , which I don't find as attractive as the D&D 8C. CLose to endgame and if you really need more bass and more output it will cost you either a lot if you want to stay within Genelec or quite a bit of work if you go to another brand of subwoofer.

the 8C or the 8361 are much better speakers than the LS50 with any combination of subwoofers you can concoct. They will play louder and better at the listening positions, you will have less boxes and a much better audio system. with either one verging on the superlative or you can removing the "verging on" .

If I were to go 2 -channel only , no HT. I'd go with the 8C at this point in time for that kind of budget... The 8361 put you on a path of mind-boggling performance because Genelec has something called the W371A. This subwoofer in a pair configuration at a rather brutal price of close to 20,000 for the pair (!!!!), bringing the speaker system to close to $30,000.oo, and to mind-boggling level of performance... ... And to confuse you more , it is possible to add subwoofers to the 8C, although I haven't seen any example of such and, in any case, is going to be a lot of work... but would cost much less than the all-Genelec solution.

Dutch and Dutch 8C, then? ...

Peace.

 

[antcollinet]

You already have a very well performing/measuring system, and you are unlikely to get an significant improvement by swapping out components. Speaker upgrade only might offer something, but with the LS50 you are already in the vicinity of diminishing returns.

I think by far your best upgrade path would be DSP/room correction before considering anything else. Look at the MiniDSP range. You could consider replacing your DAC with the MiniDSP Flex for example.

 

[ZolaIII]

1) yes ih you are happy camper.
2) every time you decide to buy something new but that's not really a reason not to enjoy it (just don't buy bulshits).
3) as room treatment is not an option get mic and play with it and EQ - DSP chain + it won't cost you much.

And remember endgame is when you're gone, in the meantime enjoy and experiment.

 

[polmuaddib]

Get a measurement mic, install REW and read about room measurements. There are great threads here, but also good videos on YT.
Then experiment with speaker placement and main listening position, software eq...
After you have tried all that and still feel the need to ugrade, go for it. But you will know what works and what doesn't.

 

[Eeyoredave]

1) yes ih you are happy camper.
2) every time you decide to buy something new but that's not really a reason not to enjoy it (just don't buy bulshits).
3) as room treatment is not an option get mic and play with it and EQ - DSP chain + it won't cost you much.

And remember endgame is when you're gone, in the meantime enjoy and experiment.

Thanks all for the replies, addressing the different replies...

Yep, end-game = passing it on! But I am at that stage of my life that I really just want one that works and want to spend more time enjoying rather than tweaking. I have a thought a lot about the EQ/DSP/Room Correction also as per @polmuaddib's and @tonycollinet's reply. I guess that is starting to take it into the objective side of the game, and using the 'science' to improve what I have. In terms of miniDSP, I would've thought that SHD Studio would be about the product for me, as it has the balanced outputs, etc., or is the newer miniDSP Flex the better option? But the Flex seems out of stock...

 

[Eeyoredave]

You already have a very well performing/measuring system, and you are unlikely to get an significant improvement by swapping out components. Speaker upgrade only might offer something, but with the LS50 you are already in the vicinity of diminishing returns.

I think by far your best upgrade path would be DSP/room correction before considering anything else. Look at the MiniDSP range. You could consider replacing your DAC with the MiniDSP Flex for example.

Welcome!
It is not proper to have your post with such difficult to answer questions >>>NOT

Question 1 and 2 are, seriously, difficult to answer. Because it is a matter of opinions.
Mine for 1 and 2:
1) About wasting time and money. NO. it is worthwhile, I believe more accurate system enhance the appreciation and the enjoyment of music.
2) Diminishing returns: it depends of the component/gear and the functionalities needed. If you simply need a transparent DAC, $150. If you need more functionalities in you DAC for example, that it be also a headphone amplifier, a preamp, a parametric EQ and balanced ouput, the RME ADI-2 FS is it. It is a superlative product and you will spend more but not have anything more. It sits at the summum of performance and has an extraordinary performance to price ratio, perhaps the highest in the gear reviewed here.

Now for question 3:
The speaker systems you are looking into are close to endgame, and, these are complete systems with their DAC, DSP and amplifiers. They only need a source with some kind of volume control on it...

The Dutch and Dutch is quasi-full range: It is able to reproduce in a domestic environment, at the listening position, the full range of audible frequencies, in other words, they can do 20 to 20,000 Hz within plus or minus 3 dB. Some people people have measured in their listening rooms at a phenomenal + or - 2 dB !!!!!. The 8C can reproduce 30 Hz at 105 dB under the same conditions. That is loud , room shaking intestinal reactions provoking bass.. . THis requires the use of a free software REW, at least a measurement microphone such as the inexpensive (circa $100) miniDSP Umik-1, and a some learning, sweats, questions on forum or perhaps the help of D&D themselves... It is a beautiful speaker IMHO and to repeat a comlete package, It can become a ROon endpoint, etc. as I said it, endgame... See Review by Mitchco (Click here)

or

The Genelec 8361. Close to full range and as good as they get, Superlative performance, almost full range. See review by Amir (Click here)... Genelec however has a GLM which is a software hardware combo that works with Genelec speakers to linearize them. It also work with the (often expensive) Genelec subwoofers but not others'. It is a big , purpose looking box , which I don't find as attractive as the D&D 8C. CLose to endgame and if you really need more bass and more output it will cost you either a lot if you want to stay within Genelec or quite a bit of work if you go to another brand of subwoofer.

the 8C or the 8361 are much better speakers than the LS50 with any combination of subwoofers you can concoct. They will play louder and better at the listening positions, you will have less boxes and a much better audio system. with either one verging on the superlative or you can removing the "verging on" .

If I were to go 2 -channel only , no HT. I'd go with the 8C at this point in time for that kind of budget... The 8361 put you on a path of mind-boggling performance because Genelec has something called the W371A. This subwoofer in a pair configuration at a rather brutal price of close to 20,000 for the pair (!!!!), bringing the speaker system to close to $30,000.oo, and to mind-boggling level of performance... ... And to confuse you more , it is possible to add subwoofers to the 8C, although I haven't seen any example of such and, in any case, is going to be a lot of work... but would cost much less than the all-Genelec solution.

Dutch and Dutch 8C, then? ...

Peace.

Thanks for such a comprehensive response!

I actually have an RME ADI-2 and its plugged into my computer along with the Generic 8010. A great system for the desktop, and hence I was drawn also to the 8361B. I could always try to move the ADI-2 to the main system and see how paramedic EQ could enhance the system.

Re your comments about the speakers, I certain am drawn to less boxes, the potential for Roon and the 8C as the system is tempting (despite the price of Roon...). For me it is a stereo system only, the HT will be another setup in another room. The reduction of boxes almost earned me an instant approval to purchase! And there is something sublimely beautiful with a single speaker only system.

I did see in the recent research of D&D that the subwoofer could be added, but seemed not to find too much information on that, maybe its still a newer (?) feature with their 2.0 software?

But your comments about the two speaker option follows the same trend as I am reading on this forum and on the net. However, my question about diminishing returns comes into play. As $30k for a system is a significant investment, but if it elevates the good times with the cheese and wine, then maybe, just maybe it is worth the ticket price!

 

[ZolaIII]

@Eeyoredave I didn't exactly ment a fixed limited physical separate DSP. To me it's more flexible PC Win/OSX as a base. Mic is a tool to graph the response (beyond sonar alike room correction) you have VTS plugin's that contain complite DAW's regarding effects (not that you will really need all of that) but there are and one's simulating specific equipment (for better and worse). Anyway point is you can do a lot there (EQ - DSP chain) and it really doesn't cost you much (hell there are even super free plugin's).

 

[Eeyoredave]

@Eeyoredave I didn't exactly ment a fixed limited physical separate DSP. To me it's more flexible PC Win/OSX as a base. Mic is a tool to graph the response (beyond sonar alike room correction) you have VTS plugin's that contain complite DAW's regarding effects (not that you will really need all of that) but there are and one's simulating specific equipment (for better and worse). Anyway point is you can do a lot there (EQ - DSP chain) and it really doesn't cost you much (hell there are even super free plugin's).

That is something that I need to do a lot of research into, bringing the computer/tech side into the audio space. But at a minimum, I will need a mic, and then I could use computer EQ/DSP and output that to the DAC, which would almost be the cheapest/quickest entry point? Or are the one box solutions, e.g., miniDSP, better, and can be part of the audio chain as well?

 

[ZolaIII]

People want separate DSP - EQ that they can ensure signal is processed the same in all accessions as some time's specifically tied to source chain dependency (video for example) or property format (including all kind of bit streaming) you won't be able to ensure same treatment. Nothing more to it. For audio solo it works great. For example I use JRiver DSD chain even for local WiFi streaming but I can't apply it to specific streaming service provider (that's not supposed by media center) and such.
For minimum you need a mic and at least good fixed 10 band (preferably 32 band EQ) while P-EQ is great to jump to the problatic area directly. There is so much more to it off course (whole world of effects and emulations). X64 (X86) is simply base platform to ensure that everything written in last 30 years will work (with OS legacy of course).

Get a mic and slowly learn about mixing and recording (and that's my advice to all of you).
And don't forget to have a nice time and enjoy.

 

[FrantzM]

Thanks for such a comprehensive response!

I actually have an RME ADI-2 and its plugged into my computer along with the Generic 8010. A great system for the desktop, and hence I was drawn also to the 8361B. I could always try to move the ADI-2 to the main system and see how paramedic EQ could enhance the system.

Re your comments about the speakers, I certain am drawn to less boxes, the potential for Roon and the 8C as the system is tempting (despite the price of Roon...). For me it is a stereo system only, the HT will be another setup in another room. The reduction of boxes almost earned me an instant approval to purchase! And there is something sublimely beautiful with a single speaker only system.

I did see in the recent research of D&D that the subwoofer could be added, but seemed not to find too much information on that, maybe its still a newer (?) feature with their 2.0 software?

But your comments about the two speaker option follows the same trend as I am reading on this forum and on the net. However, my question about diminishing returns comes into play. As $30k for a system is a significant investment, but if it elevates the good times with the cheese and wine, then maybe, just maybe it is worth the ticket price!

Those options the 8C and the Genelec are two boxes, the speakers and not much else and they are substantially less than 30K: About $10K for the 8361 and 13,000.00 for the 8C.
Both are superlative performers and complete systems...


IMHO the 30K, systems based on the Genelec or perhaps the 8C, are in the territory of Greatly Diminished returns.

Again to conclude: the 8C for 2-channel music reproduction is as close to endgame and it is a a pair of speakers and some cables, nothing else, no preamp, no DAC, no DSP-box
.. In term of performance the 8361 not too far behind, some would take it as a better solution. The GLM is an inexpensive ($299) small set and forget it thingie that comes with its own microphone, It was favorably reviewed by Amir.

Roon is not necessarily expensive, since it can be run from a laptop, I ran it without any problem from a Lenovo Tiny m90 with an i5.. I did not use its DSP capabilities however. The monthly subscription is about $10 or the lifetime for $600.

Peace

 

[SKBubba]

Looks like a pretty nice setup. Add Roon and a Qobuz subscription. That might be the most bang for your buck in terms of enjoyment.

 

[Eeyoredave]

Just pushed the button on the UMIK-2. And will start to test out REW, I can see this being a new and (long) road of discovery. I figure that if I use Roon, it can do EQ (I have a Qnap NAS, which should of okay to run Core), or if I do get the 8C, it will still be useable.

sound like a reasonable first step?