first headphone dac/amp recommendation

[dleute]

Hi all,

I am looking to get into audiophile headphones and need a "reference" dac/amp or combo recommendation to audition a wide variety of headphones. I have no idea what my headphone sound preferences will be. I do know, I am not a particularly loud listener. In a home theater, volume usually peaks at 74db or so. No reference level nonsense for me.

In addition, I would like to keep this system for a good long time. I prefer a buy once philosophy with some future proofing.

Audio will be coming from a macbook pro (primarily)

Some of the headphones I would love to hear are HifiMan Sundara/Ananda, HD 660s (and maybe other HD models). I intentionally want to hear a high ohm resistance well liked model. But which headphones are for the next question. This one is focused on dac/amp. I just want to illustrate the ability to drive 25 ohm planar magnetic all the way to some 600 ohm dynamic models.

Budget is relatively flexible. Priority is to spend the minimum necessary to meet the functional value. So if e30/l30 can drive the full range, that is probably a great option (or dx3 pro).

Knowing what you know today, what would you have told your younger audiophile self to start with to save a bunch of money in the long term?

Thanks!

--Derrek

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

E30 and any of the L30, Schiit Heresy or JDS Atom would be all you'll likely ever need...

 

[dleute]

E30 and any of the L30, Schiit Heresy or JDS Atom would be all you'll likely ever need...

No need for balanced output? (I honestly have no idea if it has any benefits. but my understanding is 10 feet and under it is irrelevant anyway?)

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

No need as far as I'm concerned

 

[twsecrest]

Hi all,
I am looking to get into audiophile headphones and need a "reference" DAC/amp or combo recommendation to audition a wide variety of headphones. I have no idea what my headphone sound preferences will be. I do know, I am not a particularly loud listener. In a home theater, volume usually peaks at 74db or so. No reference level nonsense for me.
In addition, I would like to keep this system for a good long time. I prefer a buy once philosophy with some future proofing.
Audio will be coming from a MacBook pro (primarily)
Some of the headphones I would love to hear are Hifiman Sundara/Ananda, HD 660s (and maybe other HD models). I intentionally want to hear a high ohm resistance well liked model. But which headphones are for the next question. This one is focused on DAC/amp. I just want to illustrate the ability to drive 25 ohm planar magnetic all the way to some 600 ohm dynamic models.
Budget is relatively flexible. Priority is to spend the minimum necessary to meet the functional value. So if e30/l30 can drive the full range, that is probably a great option (or dx3 pro).
Knowing what you know today, what would you have told your younger audiophile self to start with to save a bunch of money in the long term?
--Derrek

Really no real need to get high (over 300-Ohm) Ohm headphones, just not practical for most people.
Sennheiser 300-Ohm HD600/HD650/HD6XX would be considered worthwhile higher Ohm headphones, headphones would be a good match for use with pure (OTL) tube headphone amplifiers.
Something like 250-Ohm or less, should work fine plugged directly into a Apple computer (laptop or desktop).
Maybe even the 300-Ohm Sennheiser would work decently plugged directly into a Mac.
Currently my preferred headphone is the Takstar HF 580, with Sendyaudio AVIA ear pads.

 

[velasfloyd]

dont buy anything. All the sound quality comes from the master itself and the headphones... so buy a nice headphone and try to listen good quality music.
if you want to improve sound... as per every place says you need to buy and buy and buy... just dont.

Only buy dac/amp if:

-1: you dont have enough volume
-2: you need more functionality (better volume pot, screen, more granulated volume, more inputs, more outputs, etc)

macbook pro sound is just perfect (for any human ear).

if you need more volume. Just choose whatever $100 amp that measure well here.

if you need the point 2... just define what you need (very personal, every one listen music in a different way....bed, desk, walking, etc) and go for the device that gives you that. I find Z reviews very good in this regard, as the man speaks a lot about functionality instead of sound.

for example, I use Xduoo xd-05 cause is portable (I listen in bed) and has a super nice rotary knob (I listen from dap or iphone, and the iphone volume is horrible for music).

resume: listen first and see what you need later...usually will need nothing.

 

[dleute]

Really no real need to get high (over 300-Ohm) Ohm headphones, just not practical for most people.
Sennheiser 300-Ohm HD600/HD650/HD6XX would be considered worthwhile higher Ohm headphones, headphones would be a good match for use with pure (OTL) tube headphone amplifiers.
Something like 250-Ohm or less, should work fine plugged directly into a Apple computer (laptop or desktop).
Maybe even the 300-Ohm Sennheiser would work decently plugged directly into a Mac.
Currently my preferred headphone is the Takstar HF 580, with Sendyaudio AVIA ear pads.

I have read about using macbook directly or not. It would certainly be nice to not need anything. The thing is, I have never heard headphones on a dac or amp. So how would I know if adding one would make the sound better?

But, no, I don't want 600ohm headphones for the sake of them, I just figured at least one model that intrigues me would likely be 600ohm. One is 470ohm. (an audio technica I think).

That's a vote for don't do a dac/amp unless I need to! (maybe I should create a real poll?)

 

[dleute]

if you need the point 2... just define what you need (very personal, every one listen music in a different way....bed, desk, walking, etc) and go for the device that gives you that. I find Z reviews very good in this regard, as the man speaks a lot about functionality instead of sound.

Yep. I don't and won't know this for a bit. So if I can just buy headphones and run, that might be nice.

I am already seeing the iPhone volume thing is horrible. (I have a sony wh-1000mx4 that I just got primarily for work). Changing volume on its stupid touch pad is much more fine grained than ios buttons or slider. That said, even that has better sound quality to my ears than the speakers I recently auditioned. That's what lead me in the direction of headphones...

Another vote for just get the headphones...

 

[Cahudson42]

While the E30/L30 is a great and safe selection, let me suggest you consider an approach with possible downsides, but potentially ' greater rewards'..

As an alternate to the E30, and starting with a deferral of the L30 until (possibly) later - consider the $110 Qudelix 5k. Why? Because it includes a 10-band PEQ (Parametric Equalizer). And with PEQ, you increase the likelihood you can 'adjust' the FR, as well as compensate for peaks/resonances of whatever headphones you next purchase. For example, should you decide to start with a modest hp like the $79 Phillips SHP9500, by applying the Oratory 1990 PEQ profile, you will likely greatly improve your enjoyment - and satisfaction - with it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B088F7C976/

Though you could operate it in BT mode, I'd suggest, like the E30, use USB mode.

Now the potential downsides: Unfortunately, Amir has not yet measured the DAC - or Amp - performance of the Qudelix. However, we can assume it's SINAD will not be 'as good as' the E30. Will this make a difference? IMO, No. It is likely it will equal or better dongles that many here find perfectly acceptable.

Likewise, the Amp function will be 'anemic' compared to the L30. But again, will it be sufficient? IMO, most probably. Don't be put off by the size. The Qudelix gives you the choice of the usual 3.5mm SE (single ended) unbalanced output, and balanced 2.5mm with potentially 4x power output. (I found I did need balanced to adequately drive my HFM HE400i, requiring only a cable replacement for the HP). What if it's still 'amemic'? Well, this now is when you add the L30, with a 3.5mm to dual RCA cable to drive it.

If you get via Amazon, it's usually no hassle to return within 30 days if you are unhappy. I did exactly that with previous ES100 and BTR3, which I tried earlier before the Qudelix appeared.

Think about it. IMO little to lose by trying.. but a bit in enjoyment possibly gained - whatever headphones you next choose.

 

[raistlin65]

I have read about using macbook directly or not. It would certainly be nice to not need anything. The thing is, I have never heard headphones on a dac or amp. So how would I know if adding one would make the sound better?

But, no, I don't want 600ohm headphones for the sake of them, I just figured at least one model that intrigues me would likely be 600ohm. One is 470ohm. (an audio technica I think).

That's a vote for don't do a dac/amp unless I need to! (maybe I should create a real poll?)

I would definitely try whatever headphones you get first with your MacBook. If you end up cranking the volume such that the MacBook won't go much louder, then you might just add a headphone amp like the JDS Labs Atom or Schiit Heresy.

But otherwise, you might not notice much difference, especially since you said that you don't listen very loud.

 

[twsecrest]

I have read about using Macbook directly or not. It would certainly be nice to not need anything. The thing is, I have never heard headphones on a DAC or amp. So how would I know if adding one would make the sound better?

But, no, I don't want 600ohm headphones for the sake of them, I just figured at least one model that intrigues me would likely be 600ohm. One is 470-Ohm. (an Audio Technica I think).
That's a vote for don't do a DAC/amp unless I need to! (maybe I should create a real poll?)

I like Audio Technica headphones, so even if it's 470-Ohms, I would find it temping.
Apple products seem to come with decent built in DAC functions, so it's not as big a deal if you do not buy a separate DAC/amp.
I might suggest getting the Takstar HF 580 headphones, with Sendyaudio AVIA ear pads, plug it straight into the Mac.

 

[dleute]

While the E30/L30 is a great and safe selection, let me suggest you consider an approach with possible downsides, but potentially ' greater rewards'..

As an alternate to the E30, and starting with a deferral of the L30 until (possibly) later - consider the $110 Qudelix 5k. Why? Because it includes a 10-band PEQ (Parametric Equalizer). And with PEQ, you increase the likelihood you can 'adjust' the FR, as well as compensate for peaks/resonances of whatever headphones you next purchase. For example, should you decide to start with a modest hp like the $79 Phillips SHP9500, by applying the Oratory 1990 PEQ profile, you will likely greatly improve your enjoyment - and satisfaction - with it.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B088F7C976/

Though you could operate it in BT mode, I'd suggest, like the E30, use USB mode.

Now the potential downsides: Unfortunately, Amir has not yet measured the DAC - or Amp - performance of the Qudelix. However, we can assume it's SINAD will not be 'as good as' the E30. Will this make a difference? IMO, No. It is likely it will equal or better dongles that many here find perfectly acceptable.

Likewise, the Amp function will be 'anemic' compared to the L30. But again, will it be sufficient? IMO, most probably. Don't be put off by the size. The Qudelix gives you the choice of the usual 3.5mm SE (single ended) unbalanced output, and balanced 2.5mm with potentially 4x power output. (I found I did need balanced to adequately drive my HFM HE400i, requiring only a cable replacement for the HP). What if it's still 'amemic'? Well, this now is when you add the L30, with a 3.5mm to dual RCA cable to drive it.

If you get via Amazon, it's usually no hassle to return within 30 days if you are unhappy. I did exactly that with previous ES100 and BTR3, which I tried earlier before the Qudelix appeared.

Think about it. IMO little to lose by trying.. but a bit in enjoyment possibly gained - whatever headphones you next choose.

Honestly, EQ was a whole different question I was going to get to. The point here, is an app would connect me to the Qudelix and do the EQ using that, as opposed to EQ from the my MacBook. What I don't understand is what is the relationship between DAC and EQ. My MacBook can apply PEQ profiles (or so, I have been told, I have not tried it). Wouldn't that mean I am relying on my macbook DAC to not suck anyway? Would the Qudelix offer me anything that my macbook doesn't? Is it better (or worse) because it is also an external DAC?

This was literally going to be my 3rd question *after* I asked for headphone suggestions.

 

[Cahudson42]

My MacBook can apply PEQ profiles (or so, I have been told,...

I know nothing about Macs, but if a version of Equalizer APO or similar runs on it, then yes - you would not need the Qudelix for providing a PEQ function. And yes, it would be a software function, and you would indeed still be relying on the 'Macbook DAC not to suck'..

Personally, I don't like having a PC (Windows in my case) anywhere in my audio chain. With no PC, and simply connecting my Qudelix to an Android 8 LG Rebel TracFone, I run Amazon Music and the Qudelix App via OTG USB and my HE400i. 'Portable'..too..

 

[dleute]

I know nothing about Macs, but if a version of Equalizer APO or similar runs on it, then yes - you would not need the Qudelix for providing a PEQ function. And yes, it would be a software function, and you would indeed still be relying on the 'Macbook DAC not to suck'..

Personally, I don't like having a PC (Windows in my case) anywhere in my audio chain. With no PC, and simply connecting my Qudelix to an Android 8 LG Rebel TracFone, I run Amazon Music and the Qudelix App into my HE400i. 'Portable'..too..

Ok, so this is a strong argument against an external DAC. (At least one without easy use of EQ, assuming I want EQ). I just tried SoundSource for mac which has the headphone EQ's pre-loaded, so I could pick the ones for my apple airpods and apply them (it has all of oratory99 and harman something. there are hundreds if not thousands). It works. Not sure it is better in that case. But it works. There are some flaws here as it appears to modify *all* outgoing sounds whether or not I am using my airpods. But, it's a start.

I personally despise cables going to my phone. I mean, I could take it out and put it on the table and let it run things instead of a macbook (there are two to three of them in front of me on any given day). That said, I do want a mobile solution eventually.

Maybe I should look at portable dac/amp combos as a primary solution so that it works the same connected to my iPhone as it would on my MacBook? IT would certainly be nice to not have sound differences between them... The qudelix or similar would likely solve that. For now, I have just been assuming I would stay with the sony wh-1000mx4 for phone usage...

Really, I need to determine if I want EQ. Interestingly, on my Sony, I don't. I turned it off. Sounding different did not equal *better* so far. (there wasn't a single mode on any given song I thought sounded *better* with any prefab EQ on). It just sounded.... fake. Might be an indicator that I don't like EQ and prefer the raw device?

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

I'm pretty sure once you have an external dac connected via USB, the internal dac is not used at all. If the EQ is software that EQ'd signal would then go to either the internal dac if no other is connected or the external one if connected via USB or some other digital connection...

 

[Cahudson42]

there wasn't a single mode on any given song I thought sounded *better* with any prefab EQ on). It just sounded.... fake. Might be an indicator that I don't like EQ and prefer the raw device

'Not all prefab EQ are created equal'..It is very typical to not like many of them..

On the other hand, there are some, possibly many here at ASR, that would say 'all hp could benefit from PEQ'.. The 'correct' profile obviously is key..

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

yeah, but it isn't to color the sound. It's mostly to get the headphones closer to "neutral"

 

[bigx5murf]

I used a JDS o2 paired with modified fostex t50rp (very inefficient headphones) for 6-7 years before recently upgrading to JDS Atom. The increased power was immediately noticeable. It amazes me how much value these JDS amps provide, my only other amp was a headroom Cosmo, which can't compare to either.

 

[raistlin65]

Ok, so this is a strong argument against an external DAC. (At least one without easy use of EQ, assuming I want EQ). I just tried SoundSource for mac which has the headphone EQ's pre-loaded, so I could pick the ones for my apple airpods and apply them (it has all of oratory99 and harman something. there are hundreds if not thousands). It works. Not sure it is better in that case. But it works. There are some flaws here as it appears to modify *all* outgoing sounds whether or not I am using my airpods. But, it's a start.

I personally despise cables going to my phone. I mean, I could take it out and put it on the table and let it run things instead of a macbook (there are two to three of them in front of me on any given day). That said, I do want a mobile solution eventually.

Maybe I should look at portable dac/amp combos as a primary solution so that it works the same connected to my iPhone as it would on my MacBook? IT would certainly be nice to not have sound differences between them... The qudelix or similar would likely solve that. For now, I have just been assuming I would stay with the sony wh-1000mx4 for phone usage...

Really, I need to determine if I want EQ. Interestingly, on my Sony, I don't. I turned it off. Sounding different did not equal *better* so far. (there wasn't a single mode on any given song I thought sounded *better* with any prefab EQ on). It just sounded.... fake. Might be an indicator that I don't like EQ and prefer the raw device?

HIDISZ S8 measures extremely freaking accurate, as accurate as the best $200 desktop amp / DACs. I use it with my phone, and it sounds the same as my nice desktop amp/dc setup.

It definitely has enough power for HD6XX and HD660S for someone who listens at more moderate volume.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...dizs-s8-usb-c-headphone-adapter-review.10823/

Templetec Sonata HD Pro is the same unit with a different enclosure in branding.

Here it is with the lightning adapter, since I'm guessing you need that for your phone

https://www.amazon.com/TempoTec-Sonata-HD-PRO-iOS/dp/B083QZLYB3/

It can also be used as just a DAC in conjunction with a headphone amp, if you ever want to use it with your MacBook Pro for more difficult to drive headphones.

 

[dleute]

I'm pretty sure once you have an external dac connected via USB, the internal dac is not used at all. If the EQ is software that EQ'd signal would then go to either the internal dac if no other is connected or the external one if connected via USB or some other digital connection...

assuming the mac recognizes the DAC as an output device, that is possible. But what that implies is EQ is applied to the digital signal pre-DAC? If that is the case, then EQ using the Mac absolutely makes sense. I have no idea if that is true. Something I need to google. I would rather tie EQ to the mac or digital source I think.