Fire ratings for acoustic materials - Crans Montana

[1066]

Can members please safely check their acoustic room treatment materials are non-combustible.

 

[Philbo King]

Using packing foam for acoustics treatment is and has always been a terrible idea.

 

[Chr1]

As are fireworks indoors. Very unfortunate indeed.

 

[DVDdoug]

Yeah... From the photo I'd guess they were in violation of the building codes.*

And make sure there are plenty of emergency exits. ...Usually when there is a tragedy like that here in the U.S., it turns-out to be an "illegal" club with not enough exits or blocked exits, and overcrowded beyond the capacity regulations.

And usually in cases like this, or in plane crashes, etc., more than one thing has gone wrong.




* They never had a tragedy like that at Studio 54, but I saw a documentary about it and they classified most of the construction as "theatrical props" to bypass unions and presumably permits and inspections.

 

[Scrutable]

It is a grim deja vu for New Englanders unfortunately. The exact same material and similar pyrotechnics caused the fire at The Station nightclub in 2003 that killed 100 in West Warwick RI. It was a large, successful, and well known club. It was not cited for code compliance by local authorities despite two inspections. There were sufficient exits for code compliance but the fire spread so fast that people couldn't use all of them. The front door was clogged by the crowd trying to escape. Two horrible and totally preventable tragedies.

It begs the question: What SHOULD be used? Rock wool seems like the only likely candidate but it is pretty ugly to work with, plus everything is usually covered in fabric. Thoughts?

 

[napfkuchen]

It's awful how irresponsible behavior can be punished so drastically. I've done some stupid things in my life too, and I got away with just a few scrapes and injuries. Just luck. Even if building and safety regulations and their enforcement can sometimes be a nuisance... Hopefully, lessons will be learned for the future.
My acoustic panels are all rated ASTM E84 class a (low flame spread).

 

[respice finem]

Can members please safely check their acoustic room treatment materials are non-combustible.

Probably none, really, maybe apart from fiberglass and rockwool.
A tragic situation there, totally preventable despite the crap on the ceiling - with a little use of "Brain 1.0"... Fire and plastic just don't mix.
RIP for all victims.

 

[KSTR]

It begs the question: What SHOULD be used? Rock wool seems like the only likely candidate but it is pretty ugly to work with, plus everything is usually covered in fabric. Thoughts?

Pyramid acoustic foam and acoustic panels are available in professional fire-retardant versions (and look the same as standard stuff) and that is what certainly must be used in public installations like bars... same as with Molton (Duvetyne) curtains etc.

 

[respice finem]

Usually many factors contribute to such tragedies. The wrong materials, "overfilling", alcohol and common carelessness.
It wasn't the first, and won't be the last...

 

[DVDdoug]

I don't have any acoustic treatment at home but I wouldn't have given flammability a second thought!!! It's just not something I worry about. A lot of stuff around here is flammable. But I don't light fireworks inside. I don't smoke, and I don't have a fireplace (but I do have a kitchen).

In commercial-public spaces there should be permits and inspections so the property owner doesn't have to think of everything, or know everything, but I can also see someone installing sound treatment without a permit (and I certainly wouldn't try to get a permit for doing it at home.)

Just doing some really-quick research, RealTraps and GIK Acoustics both say, "Class-A fire rating". You're probably OK as long as you use the proper material for its intended purpose and if you avoid buying "random junk" from eBay or AliExpress, etc.

I've seen fireworks used indoors, in large venues, but whoever is in charge is required to have a pyrotechnic license (in the U.S.). And I'd guess that you need a pyrotechnic permit for each event. It seems like every time I've seen "official", fireworks the fire department has been on-hand. With amateurs there's usually someone doing something stupid.

 

[somebodyelse]

Fire and plastic just don't mix.

It depends on the plastic - Nomex is used to protect firemen and racing drivers from intense flames. Look at Romain Grosjean's crash at the 2020 Bahrain GP for a dramatic example. For a more accessible example hold a bit of kevlar in a lighter flame. Or look at the Basotect fire behaviour - it varies a bit by type, but most apparently have classifications for use in areas with high fire safety requirements.

Does anyone know whether there are supply chain issues in this sector, similar to those we see with fake electronic components?

 

[MCH]

Indeed, there are plenty of polymers that can be made flame retardant (with additives) or are inherently flame retardant

 

[respice finem]

It depends on the plastic - Nomex is used to protect firemen and racing drivers from intense flames. Look at Romain Grosjean's crash at the 2020 Bahrain GP for a dramatic example. For a more accessible example hold a bit of kevlar in a lighter flame. Or look at the Basotect fire behaviour - it varies a bit by type, but most apparently have classifications for use in areas with high fire safety requirements.

Does anyone know whether there are supply chain issues in this sector, similar to those we see with fake electronic components?

Yes I know, they are not all equal. But, I also know, nothing in real life is ever guaranteed (except death and taxes). And negligence, greed, fraud, etc. exist. That's why I'm trying to avoid risks that are easily avoidable. Self-preservation instinct so to speak.

A picture tells more than a thousand words:

 

[Haflermichi]

Probably none, really, maybe apart from fiberglass and rockwool.
A tragic situation there, totally preventable despite the crap on the ceiling - with a little use of "Brain 1.0"... Fire and plastic just don't mix.
RIP for all victims.

Unfortunately "Brain 1.0" as you aptly put it, is not sufficient. Most young people in particular have not yet developed their frontal cortex.
Unless they've been raised by exceedingly cautious adults it's not reasonable to expect Brain 1.0 is enough. It's not really their fault.
When peoples' safety and lives are at stake this can become a fatal blindspot.

We can't expect even the general public to have the mindset of casing every public joint they walk into (including coffee shops, restaurants and bookstores) by looking for properly lit exits, fire extinguishers, occupation capacity limit certificates etc. although a blocked exit or exit doors with locks or chains on them should be a red flag for anyone.
My wife, son and I live in earthquake territory and we've have taught my son, now 17, to always look for exits at the very least. Soon he'll be on his own, off at college...

Another aspect of nightclub fires is, (despite the bright picture, likely due to camera flash or even the sparklers themselves) these places are very dark by intent.
It's oftentimes difficult to see the ceiling at all, let alone what might be covering it. And how many of us go to these kinds of places and do a mental safety check?
"I wonder if that's flame rated foam? How about those wall coverings...?" Most of us just don't live our lives this way.

Also, as is often the case in these disasters, purchasing flame rated acoustic foam is likely a distant priority, if at all for owners.
It comes down to trusting the proprietors to have done what public safety regulations require of them. Not to mention the trustworthiness and coverage of the auditing and permitting organizations. This is all quite variable by country, state, county and even down to town level.

Even if all that were in place and properly functioning in this case it appears Brain 1.0 behavior brought a flame source within inches of what we now know to be fatally hazardous material. With tragic results.

 

[respice finem]

Unfortunately "Brain 1.0" as you aptly put it, is not sufficient. Most young people in particular have not yet developed their frontal cortex.
Unless they've been raised by exceedingly cautious adults it's not reasonable to expect Brain 1.0 is enough. It's not really their fault.
When peoples' safety and lives are at stake this can become a fatal blindspot.

We can't expect even the general public to have the mindset of casing every public joint they walk into (including coffee shops, restaurants and bookstores) by looking for properly lit exits, fire extinguishers, occupation capacity limit certificates etc. although a blocked exit or exit doors with locks or chains on them should be a red flag for anyone.
My wife, son and I live in earthquake territory and we've have taught my son, now 17, to always look for exits at the very least. Soon he'll be on his own, off at college...

Another aspect of nightclub fires is, (despite the bright picture, likely due to camera flash or even the sparklers themselves) these places are very dark by intent.
It's oftentimes difficult to see the ceiling at all, let alone what might be covering it. And how many of us go to these kinds of places and do a mental safety check?
"I wonder if that's flame rated foam? How about those wall coverings...?" Most of us just don't live our lives this way.

Also, as is often the case in these disasters, purchasing flame rated acoustic foam is likely a distant priority, if at all for owners.
It comes down to trusting the proprietors to have done what public safety regulations require of them. Not to mention the trustworthiness and coverage of the auditing and permitting organizations. This is all quite variable by country, state, county and even down to town level.

Even if all that were in place and properly functioning in this case it appears Brain 1.0 behavior brought a flame source within inches of what we now know to be fatally hazardous material. With tragic results.

You're probably right, and I have a bias, having been raised in a different environment, so to speak. This environment would probably be labeled "militarized" today, if not worse. Nonetheless, the "instincts" it imprinted, saved my ass more than once, so my "Brain 1.0" is running a different software.

 

[Haflermichi]

Yeah, I think everyone's "1.0" is different. Sounds like yours has served you well. Hopefully the development was not based on traumatic circumstances.
I used to work in pro sound and have been in numerous such venues. Fortuanately I had a good mentor who helped raise my awareness level a good couple points at least. Otherwise I would not have been tuned into such heightened safety scrutiny . At one place we quoted a job (they didn't take it) he noted several violations to me privately. Back at the shop he told me he hoped they wouldn't accept the bid because working there installing the system would put our lives at risk!

 

[respice finem]

...Hopefully the development was not based on traumatic circumstances...

Some would have been, by today's "standards", but getting "hardened" early had helped a lot.

 

[kemmler3D]

Using packing foam for acoustics treatment is and has always been a terrible idea.

Having imported and sold acoustic foam for a living, the ONLY difference between packing foam and acoustic foam is being treated for flame resistance. I mean literally the only difference. It looks and feels like the same stuff because it's the same stuff - 2.0lb/cu.ft. black polyurethane open cell foam.

"Acoustic foam" is sometimes cut into angular shapes to make it seem more "studio", it's more expensive because it's cut with a saw while the "egg crate" foam is pressed with a roller.

 

[1066]

What is the fire safety standard that members should look for on acoustic foam?

Anyone know?

 

[voodooless]

What is the fire safety standard that members should look for on acoustic foam?

Anyone know?

UL 94 Classification and Flame-Retardant Plastic Materials

A detailed analysis of thermoplastic materials with flame-retardant characteristics as well as the UL 94 classification.

www.protolabs.com