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Finally, music we can buy in 768 khz sampling rates.

Killingbeans

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But DAW's, digital workstations that engineers use, they use 32bit, or ?

Yes, but as @antcollinet says, that's only to have plenty of headroom in the digital domain.

Once you convert 24 bits to analogue, it requires a dynamic range of 144dB through the whole playback chain to make use of it.

The best audio DACs doesn't do much better than 20 bits, and as far as I'm aware, the laws of physics makes it pretty much impossible to reach a DR of 130dB.

Also, a close up gunshot is roughly 140dB. At those levels it doesn't need to be sustained for more than a split second or repeated very much to give serious and permanent hearing damage.
 

radix

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Yes, but as @antcollinet says, that's only to have plenty of headroom in the digital domain.

Once you convert 24 bits to analogue, it requires a dynamic range of 144dB through the whole playback chain to make use of it.

The best audio DACs doesn't do much better than 20 bits, and as far as I'm aware, the laws of physics makes it pretty much impossible to reach a DR of 130dB.

Also, a close up gunshot is roughly 140dB. At those levels it doesn't need to be sustained for more than a split second or repeated very much to give serious and permanent hearing damage.
It needs to be 140dB above the noise floor, which is likely 40-50 dB, so you'd really need 180dB SPL. Not going to happen.
 

Koeitje

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It needs to be 140dB above the noise floor, which is likely 40-50 dB, so you'd really need 180dB SPL. Not going to happen.
180dB? That's what the 1883 eruption of Krakatoa reached and it was loud enough to be heard at a distance of 5000 km.
 

MRC01

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I've read 768-32 is the format that the Gagrakacka Mind Zones use.

Regular concert goers judged that the best sound balance was usually to be heard from within large concrete bunkers some thirty-seven miles away from the stage, whilst the musicians themselves played their instruments by remote control from within a heavily insulated spaceship which stayed in orbit around the planet - or more frequently around a completely different planet.

Credit to Douglas Adams!
 

Killingbeans

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It needs to be 140dB above the noise floor, which is likely 40-50 dB, so you'd really need 180dB SPL. Not going to happen.

True. Forgot that important detail.

Another reason why 16 bit dithered is plenty fine for playback.
 

MRC01

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... Another reason why 16 bit dithered is plenty fine for playback.
Perhaps for you. I prefer 24 bit for perceptual transparency. Some microphones have more than 16 bits of dynamic range and the recording format should not constrain the capabilities of the mic. Cases where the difference is audible are rare, but they do exist.
 

kemmler3D

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I’d think that would not check out inverse square wise, but it does! It’s about 46 dBA at 5000km :eek:
Supposedly the infrasound from that explosion circled the earth multiple times, as measured on barometers...

Come to think of it, that's yet another fun way to disprove the flat earth theory. Neato!
 

danadam

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Some microphones have more than 16 bits of dynamic range and the recording format should not constrain the capabilities of the mic. Cases where the difference is audible are rare, but they do exist.
With flat dither, maybe. If with dither with shaped noise then I'd like to hear about them. Do you know any?
 

kemmler3D

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MRC01

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With flat dither, maybe. If with dither with shaped noise then I'd like to hear about them. Do you know any?
@kemmler3D gave a mic example. I thought you wanted an audio track example, so here you go. In this Google Drive folder you'll find dynamic range demonstration tracks. Both are the exact same recording, the only difference is one is made in 16 bit. Compared to the 24-bit track, you can hear the slightly higher level of hiss in the first 30 seconds (higher than the noise from the mic & preamp). After that it gets drowned by the increasing audio level.
 

voodooless

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The Rode NT2-A (a decent but not overwhelmingly fancy mic) has a maximum SPL of 147dB SPL and self-noise of 7dB SPL which gets us past 16 bits, even with noise shaping, I think? https://rode.com/en-us/microphones/studio-condenser/nt2-a
How would that work? The thing output 16mV at max. So in 16mV, you would have to cram 140 dB of dynamic range. So 140dB down is 1:10 millionth of that. You’ll need to amplify this a lot to get the signal into a decent ADC, like 100x or so, so let’s say 40 dB. That alone will add a shitload of noise even will good equipment. I really doubt that in practice you’ll get more than acad quality out of it, which admittedly is still plenty enough.
 

kemmler3D

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How would that work? The thing output 16mV at max. So in 16mV, you would have to cram 140 dB of dynamic range. So 140dB down is 1:10 millionth of that. You’ll need to amplify this a lot to get the signal into a decent ADC, like 100x or so, so let’s say 40 dB. That alone will add a shitload of noise even will good equipment. I really doubt that in practice you’ll get more than acad quality out of it, which admittedly is still plenty enough.
Hmm, good point. Actually I'm dumb, because it mentions 94dB SPL @ 16mV... so I guess you can go higher but at the expense of higher and higher THD. Maybe 147dB is the threshold of damaging / destroying the diaphragm.

So in realistic scenarios this mic has a bit less than 16 bits SINAD to work with.

I guess to beat 16 bits with a mic you'll need to spend a little more than you get in the "nice prosumer" range...
 

danadam

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I thought you wanted an audio track example, so here you go.
Yes, I did, thank you.

you'll find dynamic range demonstration tracks.
I thought so :). I was hoping for some jazz/classical concert ;) .

Compared to the 24-bit track, you can hear the slightly higher level of hiss in the first 30 seconds
True, but the 16-bit version still has what I would call a flat dither, only sloped a bit. By dither with shaped noise I meant something more like gesemann. In attachment there is first 30 sec converted with SoX:
Code:
sox "input" -b16 "output" trim 0 30 dither -s -f gesemann
I wonder if you'd hear a difference now at the volume that you are listening to it?

For myself, I listened to the last loud part of the track and set the volume at the limit that I dared (Sennheiser HD650 + ADI-2 Pro FS BE at -5 dB with HiPower). It was at least 10 dB louder than I'd ever listen to even quiet classical. I finally understand what Amir means by "resonating the ear lobes" :). At that volume, and after I waited until my ears adapt to silence again, I'll admit that I was able to detect the gesemann dither version but only just so. Then again, it was 10 dB louder than I'd ever listen.

Here's the spectrum of the first 5 seconds for comparison:
fft.png
 

Attachments

  • 01c-The Digital Domain-HDR-44-16-gesemann.flac.zip
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Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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It needs to be 140dB above the noise floor, which is likely 40-50 dB, so you'd really need 180dB SPL. Not going to happen.
Please remember one number noise floors are not really useful. Like most rooms have 40 db SPL of noise. Maybe a few db less with A-wtd which make some sense. Broken down into ERB which mimics our hearing more or less some bands are nevertheless right near zero SPL in that same room.
 
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Blumlein 88

Blumlein 88

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Hmm, good point. Actually I'm dumb, because it mentions 94dB SPL @ 16mV... so I guess you can go higher but at the expense of higher and higher THD. Maybe 147dB is the threshold of damaging / destroying the diaphragm.

So in realistic scenarios this mic has a bit less than 16 bits SINAD to work with.

I guess to beat 16 bits with a mic you'll need to spend a little more than you get in the "nice prosumer" range...
Most condenser microphones are pretty tough. It is the electronics in them that limit their use at high levels. Like in the case of the Rode that max level is with a -10 db pad on. The pad drops the signal so the circuitry in the mike isn't overloaded. They use 94 db SPL as a reference level because it happens to be 1 pascal of pressure.

Another example a Shure KSM 32 lists max level as 139 db SPL at 1% THD or 154 db SPL at 1 % THD with a 15 db pad switched on. The diaphragm is not the limiting factor. The KSM32 has a higher self noise level of 13 db A-wtd.
 

MRC01

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... For myself, I listened to the last loud part of the track and set the volume at the limit that I dared (Sennheiser HD650 + ADI-2 Pro FS BE at -5 dB with HiPower). It was at least 10 dB louder than I'd ever listen to even quiet classical. I finally understand what Amir means by "resonating the ear lobes" :). At that volume, and after I waited until my ears adapt to silence again, I'll admit that I was able to detect the gesemann dither version but only just so. Then again, it was 10 dB louder than I'd ever listen.
...
That jives with my experience. I said the difference was "audible" and "rare", not "obvious".
 
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