Finally got the Arya Organic. New target: small desktop DAC/Amp for max 300 Euro (ok used). I was recommended R2R and was about to go for the K11. Or?

[Alter.Nate.37]

Hi!

So, the Arya Stealth ended disappointing me. From all that biiig talk of expansive soundstage and good bass I was expecting something else.
Maybe my head and ears are just not compatible with these cans and I can't get the sound "out of my head" like other people claim.
Also the bass was kind of plasticky. And the highs were sibilant and lacking detail.
It seems that at least part of this might be due to a defect in the right speaker, so I ordered a new unit but it was delayed and the shop proposed an open box Organic with no extra cost, which I accepted, and I am quite happy with them, the bass has definitely more body and the highs are more relaxed.
The soundstage is pretty much the same, not enough "out of my head" and too "lateral" (I prefer when there's more frontal depth than width).
If I could find something with a similar bass and detail but with a more frontally deep soundstage, THAT would be endgame for a while.
But I suppose that at this price range (700 Euro) it won't be easy.
If you do have recommendations I am still in time to eventually send back the Organic.
Otherwise I'd settle with them and would focus on a good amp.

I was recommended an R2R because the Arya tend to be bright.
I'm no expert but I would think that I can achieve with EQ the same "rolled off highs" or "warmth" that this or that DAC offers?
Or are there cases where a DAC with a certain characteristic would be a better/easier solution for a specific headphone, like in this case with the suggestion to go for R2R with the Arya?
In other words, should I go for R2R or not, and why.
I still am light years from being even remotely able to comprehend any too technical explanation, so please keep it simple

Now, I did try 4 amps: three R2R (HifiMan EF400 and EF499, FiiO K11 R2R) and the FiiO BTR17.
It's very challenging to do comparisons when I can't switch super fast between amps and I can't be sure that they all are giving me the same SPL.
I think that the two HifiMan give a bit more spaciousness, and between them the 400 has a bit more presence in the highs. I personally prefer the 499, I am sensitive with highs despite slowly getting older.
Still, the difference with the K11 (IF it doesn't come from loudness) is so small that I felt it's not worth the extra cost and weight/dimension.
And then the BTR17, actually it doesn't sound bad at all and I like that it doesn't need a separate PSU, which is a plus for portability although not a must.

Anyway I'm unsure and I decided to hear what you would recommend.

Look, it's simple, I just need something with at least 500mW per Channel @16 Ohm, and I wish that it offers a spacious, detailed and transparent sound.
I don't care about color unless there's something which I can't achieve with EQ and which would be amazing for the Arya Organic.
It shouldn't cost more than 300 Euro and should be portable enough to allow regular back and forth between rooms.
The rest is optional.

Thanks!

 

[staticV3]

I'm no expert but I would think that I can achieve with EQ the same "rolled off highs" or "warmth" that this or that DAC offers?

Mostly yes.

You can easily replicate the typical high frequency roll-off of R2R DACs using EQ.

But the elevated IMD of R2R DACs cannot easily be replicated using DSP.

If you're curious what that sounds like in a controlled comparison, see here:

DEMO: Listening to the Cayin RU6 R-2R noise and distortions with headphone load. Confirming subjective impressions. And Jim Austin / Stereophile's "Thoughts On Reviewing".

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

Or are there cases where a DAC with a certain characteristic would be a better/easier solution for a specific headphone, like in this case with the suggestion to go for R2R with the Arya?

No.
Buy a DAC+Amp with neutral sound reproduction and use EQ to tailor the response to your headphones (see here and here).

In other words, should I go for R2R or not, and why.

DAC NOS vs DELTA SIGMA, Who is the real winner...

Hello Everyone, I've always been a fan of the well measuruments Delta-Sigma DAC and that they sound neutral to my ears. I currently have a DO300 SMS. I also tried some R2R DACs, such as Gustard R26 (NOS and Oversamplig mode) and HIFIMAN EF400. The latter seemed a little "colourful", while the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

Buy a DAC+Amp with neutral sound reproduction and use EQ to tailor the response to your headphones (see here and here).

Yeah maybe you missed that in my post but I do that already in Foobar with MathAudio Headphones EQ.

Anyway could you recommend a few options?
These last days obsessively comparing 4 amps, and before that headphones..., no, I can't do this again.
I just want something that someone like you and the other "sound scientists" here would say "yeah bro, with this your Arya Organic will sound the absolute best that they can possibly sound".
As much detail and transparency and dynamic range as possible, and soundstage if it's really a thing with amps (I read lot of people talking of more or less spaciousness with this or that DAC/Amp and I have no idea how this is possible but if it is I want it).
Considering that I only have a laptop and the Arya, I don't need more than USB as input and 4.4 as output.
If it can be powered just with USB it would be ideal so I don't need to move the PSU every time, but it's not a deal breaker.
I think that <1Kg is my limit. Ideally <500gr.

I had a look at FiiO Q15 and K7, SMSL DS100, Fosi Audio SK02, and I already am completely overwhelmed. I have no idea how to quantify those numbers.
I need guidance.


Thaaaanks!

 

[Gitfiddle]

Looking at what you want, the fiio btr7 or fiio btr17 seem to be exactly the correct dac/amps for you. portable, bluetooth, and plenty of power for your headphones. You really should be able to EQ the headphones to your liking by painstakingly tweaking the trebble and adding a bass shelf.

Telling you some dac/amp will add soundstage would be like me telling you aliens will land at your house on the fifth of May. If you drink enough cervesas it might happen, otherwise I'll just sound like a fool.

EDIT: I didn't see you wanted 500mw of power at 16 Ohms. At 40mw these headphones should reach 100db peaks. So take into consideration.

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

Looking at what you want, the fiio btr7 or fiio btr17 seem to be exactly the correct dac/amps for you. portable, bluetooth, and plenty of power for your headphones.

EDIT: I didn't see you wanted 500mw of power at 16 Ohms. At 40mw these headphones should reach 100db peaks. So take into consideration.

Hey, thanks.
I'm not looking for BT. Unless you mean my other thread but that's not actual anymore.
I just need something portable enough to be comfortably carried back and forth between living room and bedroom. As long as it's under 1Kg, ideally around 500gr, it's fine. Of course it's fine also if it is as small as the BTR17 but not if it means a higher price or less quality than something a bit bigger.

Btw, the Arya Organic have 16 Ohm and aren't as easy to drive (for USB-powered small amps) as the Stealth.
Without tweaking the sound in any way, the BTR17 is enough in terms of power (no idea about neutrality/fidelity). But once I use a bass enhancer and a spatializer and I lose a significant amount of SPL, I need their full power, all of it, to reach the "don't go further if you value your ears" level of loudness. Almost no headroom left.

 

[jkim]

Even if an external PSU is not a deal breaker, a high-performance, transparent DAC/amp with power > 500 mW@16 Ohm won't be cheap.

If I were you and budget-minded, I would simply choose the Fiio KA13. The KA15 is also an option and it provides on-device PEQ, but you said you don't need it.

Based on dual CS43131 / SGM8262 chips, its bus-powered performance will be as good as it gets, unless Fiio engineers made a mistake in their design.

If you want the best possible performance from a bus-powered DAC/amp combo device, there's the E1DA 9039S (680 mW @ 16 Ohm). But it is more expensive and not practical if you want to occasionally use headphones with unbalanced cables (you cannot use an adapter). And performance gain you'd get would be unnoticeable.

EDIT. The Fiio Q11 seems to be another option if occasional battery operation is useful to you. Otherwise, the KA13 should work.

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

Even if an external PSU is not a deal breaker, a high-performance, transparent DAC/amp with power > 500 mW@16 Ohm won't be cheap.

If I were you and budget-minded, I would simply choose the Fiio KA13. The KA15 is also an option as it provides on-device PEQ, but you said you don't need it.

Based on dual CS43131 / SGM8262 chips, its bus-powered performance will be as good as it gets, unless Fiio engineers made a mistake in their design.

If you want the best possible performance from a bus-powered DAC/amp combo device, there's the E1DA 9039S (680 mW @ 16 Ohm). But it is more expensive and not practical if you want to occasionally use headphones with unbalanced cables (you cannot use an adapter). And performance gain you'd get would be unnoticeable.

Hmmm.
What about Topping G5 and DX5?

 

[jkim]

Hmmm.
What about Topping G5 and DX5?

Of course, those would provide much higher output power at much higher cost. But the question is, will you use that much power? Your current headphones do not need that power.

By the way, the DX5 is discontinued. You meant DX3 Pro+? If you are willing to spend that much, how about the SMSL RAW-MDA 1?

Performance-wise, however, with your headphones I don't think you would notice improvement over the KA13.

 

[DVDdoug]

Most of the sound quality or sound character of headphones comes-down to frequency response. And to a large extent you can adjust that with EQ. (Most amps & DACs have flat frequency response over the audio range.)

As much detail and transparency and dynamic range as possible, and soundstage if it's really a thing with amps.

"Detail" isn't defined, except Dan Clark (headphone manufacturer) has said that certain distortions are often described as detail.

"Transparency" mostly relates to an amplifier that simply amplifies with no particular sound of its own (not difficult to achieve). Most DACs can also be described as transparent, converting digital to analog accurately and better than we can hear.

Dynamic range is limited by noise on the quiet-end and how loud you can go without distortion on the loud-end. With headphones you can usually get silence and you can usually go loud enough to cause hearing damage or hurt your ears. The exception is that sometimes if you boost the bass (either because you like it or because your headphones need it) you can end-up over-driving the amp or headphones into distortion.

But the perception of dynamic range is mostly a characteristic of the recording & production. For this, I like the term "dynamic contrast". A lot of modern recordings are highly dynamically-compressed to make them constantly loud. Audio electronics, speakers, and headphones are linear so the dynamics aren't compressed on the playback end unless over-driven into clipping/saturation. Clipping is a "bad kind" of dynamic compression but it's heard as distortion more than compression.

People talk about soundstage a lot but most people (including me) don't get a realistic soundstage illusion with headphones. Apparently, frequency response can affect it to some extent but you probably don't want to sacrifice frequency response to improve soundstage. Headphone Soundstage Survey

Floyd Toole is talking about speakers but he says:

The important localization and soundstage information is the responsibility of the recording engineer, not the loudspeaker.

With speakers, room acoustics also play a role. And of course your brain, since the sound is really coming from a pair of speakers or headphones.

 

[Alter.Nate.37]

Of course, those would provide much higher output power at much higher cost. But the question is, will you use that much power? Your current headphones do not need that power.

I didn't express myself clearly, sorry, I've edited my other comment now but I'll say it here too: unlike the Arya Stealth, which are sufficiently powered by the BTR17 even when I add EQ and DSP in Foobar, the Arya Organic with their 16Ohm make the USB-powered BTR17 struggle. Only at 55/60 of volume (in high gain, desktop mode, balanced cable) I get enough SPL to say "ok stop". And even if I'll not listen at that volume often, it doesn't feel right to have that little headroom when I do.

So, I need something more powerful than the KA13/KA17/BTR17.
I named the Topping G5 because I can get it for 180 used.
The DX5 I can get it for 300.
The FiiO K7 would also be in my budget.
I suppose that if I'm lucky I can get for +/- 300 also things which new cost around 500. So, it's not a hopeless fight.
And sure, if I can find the right device for less than that, wonderful. But within my budget I won't compromise even a bit of audible quality.

Most of the sound quality or sound character of headphones comes-down to frequency response.

As a newbie with little practical and theoretical knowledge, and having seen specs mentioning Dynamic Range, and manufacturers talking of "warmth", "smoothness" and other things which don't quite sound like transparency and neutrality to me, I struggle making sense of what you said. Also, detail as distortion, well, I don't know anymore if my ignorance is a bliss or a sin.
What remains is that I am not able to understand the scientific results of the reviews here, so I'm left at the mercy of the experts willing to recommend some options.
So, again in few words, skimmed of all possible terms which might raise objection:
I want something that reproduces the sound with as much neutrality/fidelity as possible and that is able to drive my headphones with enough power and competence to allow them to reveal every nuance and subtlety of the source material that they can ever possibly reveal.
If there's a little deviation from the ideal perfection, like the Topping G5 gently smoothing the highs, I can compensate it with EQ. So it's not a huge deal.
But more than that is not welcome.
Maybe I'm making things complicated but the more I read reviews & Co, the more I feel that even the slightest difference in TDH+N, SNR, Output Impedance, Jitter, clock/timing, SINAD, crosstalk and this and that, can end affecting the imaging and texture and all those beautiful things which can make the difference between wow and omfg.
I want omfg. Again, not an artificially pumped one achieved through adding what's not there, but a natural one achieved through precision and revealing.

 

[jkim]

I didn't express myself clearly, sorry, I've edited my other comment now but I'll say it here too: unlike the Arya Stealth, which are sufficiently powered by the BTR17 even when I add EQ and DSP in Foobar, the Arya Organic with their 16Ohm make the USB-powered BTR17 struggle. Only at 55/60 of volume (in high gain, desktop mode, balanced cable) I get enough SPL to say "ok stop". And even if I'll not listen at that volume often, it doesn't feel right to have that little headroom when I do.

So, I need something more powerful than the KA13/KA17/BTR17.
I named the Topping G5 because I can get it for 180 used.
The DX5 I can get it for 300.
The FiiO K7 would also be in my budget.
I suppose that if I'm lucky I can get for +/- 300 also things which new cost around 500. So, it's not a hopeless fight.
And sure, if I can find the right device for less than that, wonderful. But within my budget I won't compromise even a bit of audible quality.

I missed the fact that you have tried the BTR17. I do understand in some situation where you apply large preamp cuts, bus-powered devices with even strong output power can be borderline inadequate.

If you can get a G5 for that price, go for it. It is a one-of-a-kind device. Otherwise, the Topping DX5, DX3 Pro+, SMSL DL100, DL200, C200, C200 Pro, RAW-MDA 1 or Fiio K7 will provide even greater headroom.