FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

[Ropeburn]

I sow that video...the old hifi guy...have the warmer for over a week, he did the unboxing, No a word yet...Wonder if this will kill geshelli akm4499 with vivid opmaps and he remains in silent to protect an American company.

The mere notion of one DAC "killing" another in this day and age is comedy gold.

 

[T&T]

The mere notion of one DAC "killing" another in this day and age is comedy gold.

Agree not killing...leaving bleeding sounds better

 

[LumiAudioNut]

I don't think that "we" actually have anything but speculation as to what -- if anything! -- the vacuum tubes (valves) are doing in this device.

I believe the function of the tube buffer integrated into the FIIO Warmer is the same function that the implementation of vacuum tube/s have into other types of audio gear types (preamplifiers, amplifiers etc) and that is to inject high levels of second order harmonic distortion into the audio signal path (in some cases, the harmonic distortion is so high that it can become audible to the listener).

The distortion plot below was copied from the relevant FIIO parameter page for the Warmer (all credit for the measurement goes to FIIO):

As high as this harmonic distortion is, I've seen significantly higher in some tube gear and even few class A amplifier designs (eg from some Pass Labs affiliated Firstwatt designs)

Obviously, from an objectivist point of view, audible levels of harmonic distortion are simply a defect but, the indistubitble fact remains, that a not insignificant market exists and will continue to exist for such devices. Simply put, there is substantial money to be made from this design choice and so you can bet it will continue (even some entry level mass market brands such as Fosi and Aiyima have jumped on this lucrative bandwagon).

Happy Holidays,
Lumi

 

[Ropeburn]

I believe the function of the tube buffer integrated into the FIIO Warmer is the same function that the implementation of vacuum tube/s have into other types of audio gear types (preamplifiers, amplifiers etc) and that is to inject high levels of second order harmonic distortion into the audio signal path (in some cases, the harmonic distortion is so high that it can become audible to the listener).

The distortion plot below was copied from the relevant FIIO parameter page for the Warmer (all credit for the measurement goes to FIIO):
View attachment 495304

As high as this harmonic distortion is, I've seen significantly higher in some tube gear and even few class A amplifier designs (eg from some Pass Labs affiliated Firstwatt designs)

Obviously, from an objectivist point of view, audible levels of harmonic distortion are simply a defect but, the indistubitble fact remains, that a not insignificant market exists and will continue to exist for such devices. Simply put, there is substantial money to be made from this design choice and so you can bet it will continue (even some entry level mass market brands such as Fosi and Aiyima have jumped on this lucrative bandwagon).

Happy Holidays,
Lumi

Aw man. That spectrum is so... how to say? Useless? Overtones start at -60dB and gradually decline.

1) Not enough to be obviously audible.
2) Technically bad.
3) Useless as an effects device.

Worst of three worlds.

 

[Sliphorn]

I sow that video...the old hifi guy...have the warmer for over a week, he did the unboxing, No a word yet...Wonder if this will kill geshelli akm4499 with vivid opmaps and he remains in silent to protect an American company.

.
I have both a Geshelli J2 AK4493 with stock opamps and a J2S with AK4499 and Sparkos 3602 in all three positions. The J2S was purchased to replace the J2 in my main system thinking it would be a sound upgrade. They both sound great and I soon realized there was no reason to purchase the J2S/4499/Sparkos. If there is a sound difference it is extremely subtle. I keep the J2S in my main system and the J2 in a secondary system. So……I don’t think there’ll be any DAC killing going on.

I also use a Schiit Modi + and a Fosi ZD3 in two other systems and guess what? They sound great too. No surprise. Oh yeah, I also have a JDS Labs Atom Dac that is in my rotation just for giggles. It too sounds great.

However, I sprung for the FiiO Warmer and it should arrive by end of year. Why? Why not? I’m retired and have the loot and I like messing around with my four household systems. Yeah, I’m a bit of a gear nut. Such is life.
.

 

[LumiAudioNut]

Aw man. That spectrum is so... how to say? Useless? Overtones start at -60dB and gradually decline.

1) Not enough to be obviously audible.
2) Technically bad.
3) Useless as an effects device.

Worst of three worlds.

Serious question: How high would the highest harmonic peak (vs the fundamental) have to be in order to be considered "obviously audible"? I mean at some point, if the distortion values were high enough, the harmonic peaks would become readily audible. Has this threshold ever been determined in a rigorously scientific double blind test (Amir has previously posted how to undertake this)? Is there an accepted value or is this yet to be elucidated?

I believe the results of such a study would be helpful to an audio designer who was purposefully trying to inject audible (in the strictest sense of the word) harmonic distortion. Since we know that the market exists for such gear, there's money to be made by knowing what threshold to design for.

-Lumi

 

[Ropeburn]

Serious question: How high would the highest harmonic peak (vs the fundamental) have to be in order to be considered "obviously audible"? I mean at some point, if the distortion values were high enough, the harmonic peaks would become readily audible. Has this threshold ever been determined in a rigorously scientific double blind test (Amir has previously posted how to undertake this)? Is there an accepted value or is this yet to be elucidated?

I believe the results of such a study would be helpful to an audio designer who was purposefully trying to inject audible (in the strictest sense of the word) harmonic distortion. Since we know that the market exists for such gear, there's money to be made by knowing what threshold to design for.

-Lumi

Good question. I'd estimate it must be somewhere between 1%, barely noticeable, if at all depending on circumstances, and 10%, bloody obvious.

 

[oleg87]

Serious question: How high would the highest harmonic peak (vs the fundamental) have to be in order to be considered "obviously audible"? I mean at some point, if the distortion values were high enough, the harmonic peaks would become readily audible. Has this threshold ever been determined in a rigorously scientific double blind test (Amir has previously posted how to undertake this)? Is there an accepted value or is this yet to be elucidated?

I believe the results of such a study would be helpful to an audio designer who was purposefully trying to inject audible (in the strictest sense of the word) harmonic distortion. Since we know that the market exists for such gear, there's money to be made by knowing what threshold to design for.

-Lumi

It's not a question with a straightforward answer, since it depends on the harmonic profile of the distortion, the signal its distorting, ears/playback chain, etc. It's something you can try for yourself with software distortion though!
In my own testing, 0.01% of even the nastiest noise you can imagine is completely perceptually insignificant in realistic listening conditions. -60dB (this FiiO's distortion levels, approximately) is audible with test signals, but not obvious with music.

 

[Mnyb]

Also you probably need one of these devices per track . I don’t believe there can be a one ”coloration that makes every song better” device . Sounds a bit snakeoil to me one solution to all kinds of unrelated problems ?

Maybe the sound effects fit some tracks but not others , my guess is that simple girl with guitar and comp can benefit.
Complex music would be a mess ? Note that the overtones amass higher up in the frequency range .. so it can certainly be to good ?

Afiak the same nonlinearaty that creates THD also creates IMD which no ones think sounds good you can’t have one without the other ? Maybe with software driven effects ?

If you listen to a wide range of music, uncoloured is a better starting place

 

[Ropeburn]

Also you probably need one of these devices per track . I don’t believe there can be a one ”coloration that makes every song better” device . Sounds a bit snakeoil to me one solution to all kinds of unrelated problems ?

Maybe the sound effects fit some tracks but not others , my guess is that simple girl with guitar and comp can benefit.
Complex music would be a mess ? Note that the overtones amass higher up in the frequency range .. so it can certainly be to good ?

All of these are reasons why it MUST be adjustable. Master distortion (subtle but audible) is actually quite common in music production/mastering, and on individual instruments it's ubiquitous obviously. Certain sounds are directly designed from carefully tuned distortion turned up not to 11, but over 9000.

None of this applies to listening devices with a fixed behaviour. Useless. As I keep repeating: distortion is supposed to come from the music, not its reproduction.

- Rope "Waveshaping and Wavefolding distortion is best for Techno" Burn

 

[LumiAudioNut]

Thank you guys for the very thoughtful comments (they've given me a lot to think about). Of course, I should have known that the answer is complex and nuanced (much like most everything IRL).

BTW, most (but not all) of my audio gear is ASR approved (measures superbly), but I thought it would be interesting tolisten to something outside of my comfort zone and see what all the fuss is with harmonic distortion.

I did buy a Schiit Lyr+ preamp/headphone amp but I can't really tell the difference between the tube and SS modes in a sighted comparison.

-Lumi

 

[LumiAudioNut]

I sow that video...the old hifi guy...have the warmer for over a week, he did the unboxing, No a word yet...Wonder if this will kill geshelli akm4499 with vivid opmaps and he remains in silent to protect an American company.

He just posted another teaser on Youtube. Expect a glowing review (or a few reviews, as I get the feeling he's going to milk this one for all its worth) in the next few days.

 

[oleg87]

ASR...The one place where people rather LOOK at music, instead of listening to it. And where the "best" DAC is not allowed to cost more than 100 USD...
I can literally hear differences between DACs and even stark difference with the various inputs build in. But according to the venerable scientists of ASR, Im just imagining stuff. Okay, you do you and continue looking at some graph and be happy with your 70 USD SMSL "supergood according to THE GRAPH" DAC.

What do you think you're contributing here? Why do you insist on posting on this forum if you don't like the perspective here?
Every person here will listen to two DACs in completely uncontrolled conditions and "hear" differences, just like every person with normal human perception will get a kick out of a book that compiles visual illusions. Gauging actual audibility requires rigorous controls, which is why claims that have absolutely zero objective evidence behind them are of no interest to anyone who understands this. If you think there's something wrong with the SMSL's sound that the measurements aren't catching, provide evidence or take it elsewhere.

 

[Hindsider85]

What do you think you're contributing here? Why do you insist on posting on this forum if you don't like the perspective here?
Every person here will listen to two DACs in completely uncontrolled conditions and "hear" differences, just like every person with normal human perception will get a kick out of a book that compiles visual illusions. Demonstrating actual audibility requires rigorous controls, which is why your casual impressions are of no interest to anyone who understands this.

There are hundreds of thousands of people, who can clearly hear differences between DACs, myself included. But according to the hivemind here, we are all just imagining stuff. Im using the same set-up, in the same room, sitting in the same position and I hear STARK differences between DACs. Yet the "venerable scientific community" here says, that im just imagining stuff. And that some low budget SMSL DAC sounds the same, as a DAC that costs 20-50 times more. Its actually getting petty and really annoying, when people want to talk about new DACs and there is always a legion of users here who chime in FURIOUSLY and demand to know why such a "useless and expensive" DAC dares to exist. When SMSL delivers the supposedly same performance for a fraction of the cost. How dare they do not conform to our GRAPH!!!

 

[oleg87]

There are hundreds of thousands of people, who can clearly hear differences between DACs, myself included. But according to the hivemind here, we are all just imagining stuff.

Yep, even in the cases where there might be a genuinely discernable difference (like this FiiO), the imagination will swamp any real differences, assuming one of the devices isn't broken or has *severe* fidelity deficiencies. It's not surprising that every human has human perception, but it is surprising how resistant audiophiles are to actually testing their hearing as opposed to overpriced gadgets.

And that some low budget SMSL DAC sounds the same as a DAC that costs 20-50 times more.

Amazingly, DAC sound is produced by electronics, not pricetags.

 

[Ropeburn]

It's really like I thought

400 moneys for that? Bad value. Better use this.

Step 1:

("Destroy" setting. Hell yeah)

Step 2:

First one 60 moneys, second one free. Much better value.

 

[JSmith]

There are hundreds of thousands of people, who can clearly hear differences between DACs, myself included. But according to the hivemind here, we are all just imagining stuff. Im using the same set-up, in the same room, sitting in the same position and I hear STARK differences between DACs. Yet the "venerable scientific community" here says, that im just imagining stuff. And that some low budget SMSL DAC sounds the same, as a DAC that costs 20-50 times more. Its actually getting petty and really annoying, when people want to talk about new DACs and there is always a legion of users here who chime in FURIOUSLY and demand to know why such a "useless and expensive" DAC dares to exist. When SMSL delivers the supposedly same performance for a fraction of the cost. How dare they do not conform to our GRAPH!!!

What is annoying are posts like this that are based in fallacy rather than logic.


JSmith

 

[mhardy6647]

It's really like I thought
View attachment 495416

400 moneys for that? Bad value. Better use this.
...
First one 60 moneys, second one free. Much better value.

Destruction is expensive.

 

[voodooless]

There are hundreds of thousands of people, who can clearly hear differences between DACs, myself included. But according to the hivemind here, we are all just imagining stuff

So then where is all the proof? It should be trivial for at least some of these people to do a simple controlled and repeatable test and show the results, should it not?

How dare they do not conform to our GRAPH!!!

The graphs are just a shortcut to not need to do the test. They clearly show when things should be audible and when not. Decades of research exists to corroborate this.

 

[Mnyb]

It’s not as weird as it looks millions or billions of people are collectively wrong about other things all the time all days of the week , that the audiophile hobby sunked into subjective nonsense with cables and stuff in the 80’s is sad but not really a mystery or strange as phenomenon .

And there are hundreds of forums committed to these illusions. I specifically joined ASR to get away from the crazies elsewhere ! But they keep signing up here ? Why ? As I said ad naseum it’s a parallel to astrologist bashing astronomy forums or homeopaths bashing a medical forum ?

Sigthed anecdotes are not even wrong they are just not data, they can form the base of testable hypothesis to be looked into but not much more .
Which is already done deal decades ago for audio electronics re audible differences .

If the same anecdotes show up again agian afterwards, it’s a job for social or physical and physiological sciences , but the audio part is solved.