FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

[SMen]

I used a Topping D90SE and an ASML with a 4499EX Chip. I hated them and returned them 2 days after. Again, you can post whatever fancy SINAD graph you want, it will never change my opinion that you cant listen to music on such devices. I even go so far to say that those designs arent meant for music enjoyment.
Thats why I will only use R2R DACs.

By way of follow up because I have never looked at HiFiman products before ... it does look well made ... and there are a lot of areas where they seem to be seeking best practice ... and it would fit under my tv

I would not necessarily think that it was the R2R, and buy solely on the basis that a device was R2R ... there are plenty of other reasons. I mean even with their R2R they are quoting much tighter tolerances than the FiiO being discussed here. 0.01% vs 0.1%. Many here would argue that that gets it down to inaudible differences vs the delta sigma...

But then HiFiman have just bought Goldenwave for their digital filtering prior to the dac ...

so perhaps all this must be for just marketing and so forth. ... or maybe HiFiMan believe in their technical manufacturing goals and are not con artists. Plenty of reasons apart from the dac methodology to like this unit is all I am saying.

I'm looking at it and thinking that even if it's all bias I might quite like one of those

 

[Ropeburn]

I took the liberty of fixing up that DAC comparison someone posted yesterday, I imagine it should be easy to tell which of these is the AKM DAC by its unbearable harshness
(or perhaps if you're of a different subjectivist bent, its velvety smoothness?):

akm vs r2r · FunkyABX

abx.funkybits.fr

Ahahaha now this is just PERFECT.

Fun observation. the sound changes slightly when it changes samples. The brushes seem a lil brighter. Bass becomes "rounder".

Because it always changes at the same position in the track.

 

[aagstn]

Ignorance is truly bliss

The best part of a belief is it doesn't require any messy facts to be true. Facts tend to get in the way.

 

[scottm_dj]

So here's what I see as the biggest problem here... The tubes. With no remote, you'll need to get up and walk up to the unit every single time to turn it on and off. I usually leave my equipment (other than amp) on all the time for best sound...but if you do this with 10,000 hour tubes (24x7) it will last all of about...a year.

That's one of the main reasons I went from a great tube preemp (Conrad Johnson) to a great tube-sounding solid state preamp (Audio Research). And couldn't convince myself to get the Modwright analog bridge that replaced their Oppo mod for the same reason

Yeah, this is meant for a desktop not a main HT system.
.

 

[DSJR]

...without the ear bleeding harshness of an AK4499.

Hopefully you're not trolling here.

I was always 'led to believe by subjectivist forum 'experts'' that the AK chips were warm toned and velvety

 

[SMen]

So here's what I see as the biggest problem here... The tubes. With no remote, you'll need to get up and walk up to the unit every single time to turn it on and off. I usually leave my equipment (other than amp) on all the time for best sound...but if you do this with 10,000 hour tubes (24x7) it will last all of about...a year.

That's one of the main reasons I went from a great tube preemp (Conrad Johnson) to a great tube-sounding solid state preamp (Audio Research). And couldn't convince myself to get the Modwright analog bridge that replaced their Oppo mod for the same reason

Yeah, this is meant for a desktop not a main HT system.
.

Hopefully you're not trolling here.

I was always 'led to believe by subjectivist forum 'experts'' that the AK chips were warm toned and velvety

I doubt that @Hindsider85 is trolling - hope not - but these are good points. I have the SMSL Raw Dac with the AK4499EX and I kind of just view it as 'practical' - lots of inputs, remote control (can't believe this FiiO does not have one @scottm_dj ...


Nothing warm toned or velvety about it ... though I gather 'velvet' was used in marketing material for the AK chips ...

And then there is this obsession with warmth!

Your reference @DSJR though to live, unamplified music ... how would I put this ... all this talk here about incredible SINAD and dynamic range etc. Perfect measurements.

You are quite right but in our rooms, it is about compression and perceptions of dynamics etc. within a range or maybe 30dB max? That is off the top of my head.

We can't handle live drums in our living rooms. But it explains why we still have valves and vinyl in 2025

 

[scottm_dj]

can't believe this FiiO does not have one

....leading me to believe more and more this is meant for a desktop setup--especially it's mini size & sub $500 cost.

 

[Blockader]

Hopefully you're not trolling here.

I was always 'led to believe by subjectivist forum 'experts'' that the AK chips were warm toned and velvety

They’ve all got it wrong. They are just mindlessly repeating the latest forum folklore like a bunch of obedient sheep. But not him. No, his golden ears have granted him access to a higher plane of audiophile truth. While the rest of us are blinded by measurements and what Amir says, he alone has bravely discovered that AK chips which are long praised as 'warm' and 'velvety', are in fact harsh and sibilant.

Maybe, just once, instead of building these biases from fancy graphs and treating them like gospel, you could just… listen.

Like actually listen.

no expectations, no 'I read this on a forum so it must be true' stuff and just process what you hear for the first time in your life.

/sarcasm.

 

[SMen]

They’ve all got it wrong. They are just mindlessly repeating the latest forum folklore like a bunch of obedient sheep. But not him. No, his golden ears have granted him access to a higher plane of audiophile truth. While the rest of us are blinded by measurements and what Amir says, he alone has bravely discovered that AK chips which are long praised as 'warm' and 'velvety', are in fact harsh and sibilant.

Maybe, just once, instead of building these biases from fancy graphs and treating them like gospel, you could just… listen.

Like actually listen.

no expectations, no 'I read this on a forum so it must be true' stuff and just process what you hear for the first time in your life.

/sarcasm.

This is interesting because I can't quite tell if you are referring to following "measurements bias" or following "forum folklore bias" ... and actually just listening does not work here either because whatever you think you hear must be bias! And generally the measurements are such that "everything" is above the threshold of being able to hear differences anyway, so there aren't any... do a blind test!

By the time I have grunted behind my system swapping units and the necessary cables and such I am certainly blind to hearing any differences.

Looking at this FiiO R2R Warmer ... I think we need tubes in preamplifiers as switchable options ... and these pre-amplifiers maybe need to revisit a few long lost features to handle the incredible range of source material we have at our disposal that was mastered so differently between recordings that wonderfully perfect DACs can't quite cut it by themselves.

 

[JSmith]

simple "marketing shenanigans"?

Correct.

Why do people pay 5+ times the price for a good R2R DAC, when they can have a flat and "correct" Delta Sigma DAC for around 200 bucks?

As above, marketing... online shills both paid and unpaid.

I guess everyone is just a fool, right?

Nah, just suckered in unfortunately.

I swear, people like this dont actually listen to music but look at graphs.

Nah, we all listen to music... just not the gear.


JSmith

 

[foden2025]

It is not possible that people like different types of sound and design? Does it have to be only Delta-Sigma in the market, isn't competition a good thing for both technologies? Are people like machines and should just check a graph for a DAC and if it measures well it must be better sounding than a slightly worse measured DAC. And that repeated notion that humans can't distinct the difference. It's just insane how here in the forum some ignore that people have different tastes and some people can notice pre-ringing, post ringing, timing issues etc, in Delta-Sigma implementations. I own SMSL RAW MDA1, the great budget reviewed DAC here, I know one thing regarding it, I don't like the digital filters implementation on it one bit. I use digital filters and modulators in HQPlayer and I much prefer the sound of those filters over the SMSL filters, and I like IIR and Gaussian filters more than the others and I hear the difference easily just by switching! I also know that I prefer R2R to Delta Sigma DACs I tried. Tubes to Solid state in preamp also. What matters is how you like your music sounds at the end.

 

[JSmith]

It is not possible that people like different types of sound and design?

Absolutely, speakers, placement, room, EQ, treatments... nothing to do with DAC's generally.


JSmith

 

[aagstn]

It is not possible that people like different types of sound and design? Does it have to be only Delta-Sigma in the market, isn't competition a good thing for both technologies?

I think the point being missed is there is no difference in the sound. People pay more for the R2R for the illusion of a difference. I'm all for paying more for more features like balanced out, but spending money on a DAC for a different sound is a waste. Focus on things that matter like speakers and the listening room.

 

[SMen]

It is not possible that people like different types of sound and design? Yes Does it have to be only Delta-Sigma in the market, No isn't competition a good thing for both technologies? Yes Are people like machines and should just check a graph for a DAC No and if it measures well it must be better sounding than a slightly worse measured DAC. No And that repeated notion that humans can't distinct the difference. It's just insane how here in the forum some ignore that people have different tastes and some people can notice pre-ringing, post ringing, timing issues etc, in Delta-Sigma implementations. I am not sure that I can ... certainly not in a switching blind test I own SMSL RAW MDA1, the great budget reviewed DAC here, I know one thing regarding it, I don't like the digital filters implementation on it one bit. I use digital filters and modulators in HQPlayer and I much prefer the sound of those filters over the SMSL filters, and I like IIR and Gaussian filters more than the others and I hear the difference easily just by switching! I also know that I prefer R2R to Delta Sigma DACs I tried. Tubes to Solid state in preamp also. What matters is how you like your music sounds at the end. Yes

There are always exceptions to the rule that (ought to) warrant investigation ... ought to...

 

[oleg87]

It is not possible that people like different types of sound and design? Does it have to be only Delta-Sigma in the market, isn't competition a good thing for both technologies? Are people like machines and should just check a graph for a DAC and if it measures well it must be better sounding than a slightly worse measured DAC.

No one's telling anyone what to buy or not buy - if you want a DAC with audible levels of distortion, or you just have a thing for VU meters, knock yourself out. If you want to run some $300 software oversampling filter, that's only harming your wallet. But there's enough technical misinformation and confusion out there that I really would rather not have read it on ASR.

It's just insane how here in the forum some ignore that people have different tastes and some people can notice pre-ringing, post ringing, timing issues etc, in Delta-Sigma implementations.

This is an extremely dubious, unevidenced claim. I find it extremely unlikely that you can hear 22khz+ filter ringing. If the age in your profile is accurate I'd be surprised if you could still hear 18khz at normal volumes. I find it extremely improbable that the music you listen to stimulates any meaningful amount of ringing from the filter to begin with, unless it is so poorly mastered that you've got bigger problems. I suspect this is entirely a case of all that scary ringing in impulse response plots (which is a very different matter from properly mastered and appropriately band-limited music, mind you) priming your biases.

I hear the difference easily just by switching

People also routinely hear differences where there could not possibly be a difference (ie verifiably bit-identical digital data is buffered and completely isolated from anything that could *concievably* make an audible difference). What this tells me is not that I'm underestimating the ear's sensitivity, but that subjectivists are (vastly) underestimating how susceptible they are to false positives.

 

[SMen]

I think the point being missed is there is no difference in the sound. People pay more for the R2R for the illusion of a difference. I'm all for paying more for more features like balanced out, but spending money on a DAC for a different sound is a waste. Focus on things that matter like speakers and the listening room.

Speakers and the listening room definitely.
DACs have improved so much (unless of course people here think they were always perfect because in the 80s we were told they were)...

The problem I have, is that to say they are all perfect and sound the same, that it's all bias and illusion on the part of the listener is also missing a point. I could listen to 10 or 100 DACs and come to exactly that conclusion. It's why FiiO have stuck valves on this one. There are just gazillions of listeners out there fed up with them all sounding the same ...!

So manufacturers are finding ways to make them sound different.

Here is a thought experiment - are there DACs out there that make the myriad of tracks people have on their streaming servers sound more varied (between tracks) in terms of sound production or less varied than other DACs?

I'd like one of those please. I have had DACs historically that have done the latter (less variation).

 

[oleg87]

are there DACs out there that make the myriad of tracks people have on their streaming servers sound more varied (between tracks) in terms of sound production or less varied than other DACs?

I'm not sure I've seen a measured DACs that does something more exciting that rolling off either some amount of treble or bass, or adding faint levels of distortion. I think that calls for DSP, not swapping converters.

Personally, I think if you want to home-remaster your music, sticking it into a DAW and futzing around with the reams of eq and distortion and dynamics plugins you can find is both a more fun and more productive activity.

 

[LumiAudioNut]

My quote still had the full link. DUHHHH sometimes I hate the internet, it's a minefield. Removed it

Agreed. The internet definitely is a minefield, but thanks again for helping to diffuse a couple of those landmines. Much appreciated.

-Lumi

 

[Mnyb]

It is not possible that people like different types of sound and design? Does it have to be only Delta-Sigma in the market, isn't competition a good thing for both technologies? Are people like machines and should just check a graph for a DAC and if it measures well it must be better sounding than a slightly worse measured DAC. And that repeated notion that humans can't distinct the difference. It's just insane how here in the forum some ignore that people have different tastes and some people can notice pre-ringing, post ringing, timing issues etc, in Delta-Sigma implementations. I own SMSL RAW MDA1, the great budget reviewed DAC here, I know one thing regarding it, I don't like the digital filters implementation on it one bit. I use digital filters and modulators in HQPlayer and I much prefer the sound of those filters over the SMSL filters, and I like IIR and Gaussian filters more than the others and I hear the difference easily just by switching! I also know that I prefer R2R to Delta Sigma DACs I tried. Tubes to Solid state in preamp also. What matters is how you like your music sounds at the end.

The ringing in many properly designed filters only happens with the test pulse and not at all with properly bandwidth limited music .

But I’m quite sure you can set filters to sound audible different if you abuse the parameters enough ? When this happens you usually managed to build a broad but tiny slope in the treble.

 

[DSJR]

Your reference @DSJR though to live, unamplified music ... how would I put this ... all this talk here about incredible SINAD and dynamic range etc. Perfect measurements.

You are quite right but in our rooms, it is about compression and perceptions of dynamics etc. within a range or maybe 30dB max? That is off the top of my head.

We can't handle live drums in our living rooms. But it explains why we still have valves and vinyl in 2025

I do take and fully accept your points above but...

I had a pair of once top notch active monitors with 12" bass drivers in a room arguably too small for them and believe me, the 'suspension of disbelief' vibe was VERY strong in these when playing well produced jazz and rock albums (ask my neighbours of the time - cough - ). They could do midrange 115dB in-room at a metre or two which was excruciatingly loud and I never thrashed them like this apart from 'proving a point' to myself. Love the memory and still grieve for their sale when I married... These days, my music reproduction just isn't the same, but I retain a much smaller-scale vintage rig which I use when I can, spending far too much time on here as compensation

There's a wonderful quality I like in my beer-budget SMSL dac reproduction which some call 'detail' and maybe others 'stark or clinical,' and that's the ability to hear deep into a mix, flutter-echo effects, double tracked instruments or vocals and general layering in a mix, even if the 'perspective' is artificial. Not sure if any 'one' measurement parameter covers this ability, but I sure as heck love the 'blend' of performance to enable me to do this better than the donor CD player alone, which itself was superb back in 1988 or so over more mundane players of the time. These days, low levels only!