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FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

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mhardy6647 said:
... and this :) (from the same article)
View attachment 491761

Note that the Paia "Tubehead" uses the ECC83 (12AX7) twin triode as its "effects generator" as opposed to the Fiio's E88CC (which is a variant of the ECC88/6922/6DJ8 6 V heater, high-mu twin triode and not all that different than an ECC83).
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Thank you for these - :) my evening reading this evening. Seems born out by the measurements.
 
beeface said:
nearly a handsome unit, but the "R2R TUBE DAC" printed on the front is terrible. I think it's the typeface I find most offensive. Totally anachronistic
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It's an anachronistic product!
It certainly hearkens back to other times and other places... ;)

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(random internet photos... although there is an Ampzilla carcass down in the basement :eek:)

Speaking of anachronistic -- GAS's founder, chief cook & bottlewasher; the late, redoubtable James Bongiornio.
1763643421896.jpeg
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[In Memoriam] James Bongiorno RIP - [English]

An article to celebrate an eclectic man and HiFi design, a genius and a true legend, James Bongiorno. An article written by L. Cadeddu on TNT-Audio - www.tnt-audio.com
www.tnt-audio.com
 
robbiekhan said:
How do you propose substantiating soundstage and fatigue, both features that are specific to each individual person? Everyone hears both of these things differently, regardless of what any measurement under the sun /might/ try to portray.

I am sharing what I hear and that one amp causes fatigue whilst another does not. That is all I can tell you, people either accept that or they don't. it impacts me 0% how people feel about it either way.

It's like saying Tinnitus can be measured and treated, yet there is no treatment or standard measurement to gauge it, and every person who has it is impacted by it differently.
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your bright headphones are being "warmed" out by the r2r dacs.

Though I must say the harmonic distortion from tubes might also be playing a role in that. Analog harmonic distortion can be a lot more pleasant than digital one, well the ones that are intentional anyways. I produced a bit of music and any old synths had specific oddities that made the sound far warmer and nicer to listen to, for example a saw wave having improper harmonics leading to a warmer tone. I tried day and night to replicate it with my digital synth but without specific engineering, it's quite difficult. It can be done, there are digital recreations of analog synths that are shockingly good sounding but i was just giving an idea. I can send sound samples of those. A simple super saw from Sylenth1 is far superior to a super saw from Vital, the oddities in the Sylenth1 synth make it beautiful. It's why you'll see so many producers chasing analog synths.

I can understand why you find one more pleasurable than another. I personally EQ down the heck out of the highs of my headphones and turning up the lows. "warming" the sound up for my preferences.

Basically, you just hate the tonality of your headphones out of the box and the tube amp's distortion/load dependence ends up creating a response that is more suitable for you. HRTF is a real thing and everyone's preferences in terms of headphones vary wildly. Calling the DX5 II analytical and the R2R DACs warm is indeed true based on data available, at least to my eyes.

However, that does not make the DX5 II a bad DAC, it is a faithful carrier of the sound from the source to your headphones. The R2R is a bad DAC but a good product if people like it.

Audio is a subjective hobby, objective measurements give us guidelines but no hard rules, every curve is a preference curve based on bounds, DX5 II perhaps steers things out of bounds for you whereas the R2R with its imperfect recreation somehow manages to things back in to your preferences.
 
Jiraya369 said:
your bright headphones are being "warmed" out by the r2r dacs.
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I love tube gear and the simplicity of the R2R concept, but I'd wager that even being less performant, they still clear at least -70 dB SINAD. In this scenario, and given that they don't have huge quirks elsewhere (or it'd show in multitone, FR and IMD measurements), the actual changes wouldn't produce a substantial change in tonality or sound.

Here in ASR we grew used to <-100 dB numbers because that's the state of the industry due to OP amps and cheap-and-easy NF circuits, but that doesn't mean that the low 70s would sound atrocious or even bad. While not all distortion is equal in timbre, the klippel test perfectly illustrates how little it matters once a good enough relative is reached. This is why we are unbothered by speaker distortion around the mark of 1% or even a bit higher (especially in the low end).

Following this logic, the biggest aspect of the change in sound is actually from bias.
 
Curupira said:
I love tube gear and the simplicity of the R2R concept, but I'd wager that even being less performant, they still clear at least -70 dB SINAD. In this scenario, and given that they don't have huge quirks elsewhere (or it'd show in multitone, FR and IMD measurements), the actual changes wouldn't produce a substantial change in tonality or sound.

Here in ASR we grew used to <-100 dB numbers because that's the state of the industry due to OP amps and cheap-and-easy NF circuits, but that doesn't mean that the low 70s would sound atrocious or even bad. While not all distortion is equal in timbre, the klippel test perfectly illustrates how little it matters once a good enough relative is reached. This is why we are unbothered by speaker distortion around the mark of 1% or even a bit higher (especially in the low end).
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if there is a definite, non-subjective audible difference in the tube/r2r i just attempted to give an explanation to it.

I am not immune to placebo but am more resistant to it than a lot of people i've seen. I experiment with stuff over and over and most conclusions that i've come to, despite subjective biases or not, end up agreeing with research like preference curves aligning with my tastes in different regions and mp3 256+ being transparent

Oh and, wouldn't speaker distortion numbers be less important than headphone ones? Like, headphones are listened at the ear level with direct sounds whereas speakers have room reflections so wouldnt headphones require a lower threshold?
 
Curupira said:
I love tube gear and the simplicity of the R2R concept, but I'd wager that even being less performant, they still clear at least -70 dB SINAD. In this scenario, and given that they don't have huge quirks elsewhere (or it'd show in multitone, FR and IMD measurements), the actual changes wouldn't produce a substantial change in tonality or sound.

Here in ASR we grew used to <-100 dB numbers because that's the state of the industry due to OP amps and cheap-and-easy NF circuits, but that doesn't mean that the low 70s would sound atrocious or even bad. While not all distortion is equal in timbre, the klippel test perfectly illustrates how little it matters once a good enough relative is reached. This is why we are unbothered by speaker distortion around the mark of 1% or even a bit higher (especially in the low end).

Following this logic, the biggest aspect of the change in sound is actually from bias.
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Is that valve bias? ... I had a quick dip into my reading list set by @mhardy6647 ;)
 
Jiraya369 said:
if there is a definite, non-subjective audible difference in the tube/r2r i just attempted to give an explanation to it.

I am not immune to placebo but am more resistant to it than a lot of people i've seen. I experiment with stuff over and over and most conclusions that i've come to, despite subjective biases or not, end up agreeing with research like preference curves aligning with my tastes in different regions and mp3 256+ being transparent

Oh and, wouldn't speaker distortion numbers be less important than headphone ones? Like, headphones are listened at the ear level with direct sounds whereas speakers have room reflections so wouldnt headphones require a lower threshold?
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I understand what you meant, it's just that the whole idea of a H2 dominant signal making the overall sound warmer, IMO, is usually blown out of proportion.

And yes, I think headphones should have a lower threshold, but I don't know if there were actual studies differentiating the two.


SMen said:
Is that valve bias? ... I had a quick dip into my reading list set by @mhardy6647 ;)
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Yes. I own an OTL myself and the experience of turning it on and watching the tubes dimly glow in a dark lit room enhances my listening session, although I know what it's doing to the sound.
 
Jiraya369 said:
if there is a definite, non-subjective audible difference in the tube/r2r i just attempted to give an explanation to it.

I am not immune to placebo but am more resistant to it than a lot of people i've seen. I experiment with stuff over and over and most conclusions that i've come to, despite subjective biases or not, end up agreeing with research like preference curves aligning with my tastes in different regions and mp3 256+ being transparent

Oh and, wouldn't speaker distortion numbers be less important than headphone ones? Like, headphones are listened at the ear level with direct sounds whereas speakers have room reflections so wouldnt headphones require a lower threshold?
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These are all really good points ... what I find interesting is that all these dac units measured here with these incredible measurements are not resulting (for many people) in incredible satisfaction....

I put it down to source material. I think I need a switch to switch in an optional R2R and valve chain to handle certain sources and broadcasts.
 
Curupira said:
I understand what you meant, it's just that the whole idea of a H2 dominant signal making the overall sound warmer, IMO, is usually blown out of proportion.

And yes, I think headphones should have a lower threshold, but I don't know if there were actual studies differentiating the two.



Yes. I own an OTL myself and the experience of turning it on and watching the tubes dimly glow in a dark lit room enhances my listening session, although I know what it's doing to the sound.
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subjective biases masking actual results then?

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. It is indeed warmer but not as warm as people say, with the visuals/marketing bias them toward that perhaps. You cant ever know for sure without blind ABX testing. Would be curious to see how load dependent amps fare against transparent ones with EQ
 
SMen said:
These are all really good points ... what I find interesting is that all these dac units measured here with these incredible measurements are not resulting (for many people) in incredible satisfaction....

I put it down to source material. I think I need a switch to switch in an optional R2R and valve chain to handle certain sources and broadcasts.
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seems like people just dont like the sound of their headphones and the differences due to load dependency/distortion change things up just enough to make it all better.

Who knows, maybe it's mr placebo doing his magic. I'm guilty of falling for it whilst testing flac vs mp3 320 and 256.
 
Jiraya369 said:
seems like people just dont like the sound of their headphones and the differences due to load dependency/distortion change things up just enough to make it all better.

Who knows, maybe it's mr placebo doing his magic. I'm guilty of falling for it whilst testing flac vs mp3 320 and 256.
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Well yes, flac vs mp3 etc. is a whole different ball game. I would not tell the difference doing blind switching at the better bit rates. And now as I listen to Amazon Music a lot, an album can switch between redbook and 24/192 between songs and I would have no idea ... nor care a jot. Furthermore, I could listen to two albums mastered differently, both at 16/44 ... but if someone listened to the better master at 24/192 they could understandably attribute the better sounding master to the higher bit rate.

However, after spending an age back in the day converting everything to AAC for portability, it just did not bring happiness. I think our brains do somersaults to interpret and fill in - so longer term feel counts, and quick A/B switching can confuse.

It's not all about warmth!

Valves and indeed certain vinyl recordings can just have more 'pep' - distortion and all ... and I for one prefer 'pep' to 'flat'. There's just too much 'flat'!! Rant over :)
 
SMen said:
Well yes, flac vs mp3 etc. is a whole different ball game. I would not tell the difference doing blind switching at the better bit rates. And now as I listen to Amazon Music a lot, an album can switch between redbook and 24/192 between songs and I would have no idea ... nor care a jot. Furthermore, I could listen to two albums mastered differently, both at 16/44 ... but if someone listened to the better master at 24/192 they could understandably attribute the better sounding master to the higher bit rate.

However, after spending an age back in the day converting everything to AAC for portability, it just did not bring happiness. I think our brains do somersaults to interpret and fill in - so longer term feel counts, and quick A/B switching can confuse.

It's not all about warmth!

Valves and indeed certain vinyl recordings can just have more 'pep' - distortion and all ... and I for one prefer 'pep' to 'flat'. There's just too much 'flat'!! Rant over :)
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nothing wrong with having preferences

using those preferences as a rule to guide others is wrong though. That's the trap most pretentious people fall into. "I spent a lot and i like this so you must as well! if you dont like this you're wrong!"

Be it subjectivists or objectivists, i've seen both groups do the same thing and it's funny, but also sad and infuriating. The blind leading others to a pit and acting smug about it.
 
Brian Hall said:
The worst of both worlds. R2R and tubes. There are better options.
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I would say, at the very least, that it would have been correct to specify IHMO and that it is your personal opinion and therefore highly debatable........ :) :)

Firstly, because although it does not excel in terms of instrumental performance, R2R conversion technology (when well implemented) brings music reproduction much closer to realism than Delta-Sigma technology, in terms of the Image of the vocalist and instruments and in terms of a credible and almost palpable Soundstage.

Secondly, because when used in their chosen field of delicate voltage preamplification, valves in an analogue output stage are definitely better and much more technically refined than a trivial OpAmp costing a few pounds, which can never work in “Class A” and with Zero Negative Feedback.
 
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Ultima Legione said:
Firstly, because although it does not excel in terms of instrumental performance, R2R conversion technology (when well implemented) brings music reproduction much closer to realism than Delta-Sigma technology, in terms of the Image of the vocalist and instruments and in terms of a credible and almost palpable Soundstage.
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Absolute nonsense
 
Ultima Legione said:
Uncomfortable truth or opinion with the same dignity as others? :):)
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The empirical fact that unless by "well-implemented" we mean poorly implemented from a high-fidelity perspective, R2R converters do not have a "sound" that exists outside of your imagination, and neither do delta-sigma converters, because they do not produce audible levels of anything that isn't the unaltered musical signal.

Even with this FiiO, despite being a long way from objectively high fidelity, I wouldn't bet on folks readily discerning -60dB distortion products in normal music without peeking.
 
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