FIIO Warmer R2R DAC (with tube buffer)

[RexrothPigeon]

I still stand by my points and this will not change.

if you are actually interested in this stuff and not intractably anti-scientific

asked and answered
you're on the wrong site. audiosuperstitionreview is a few towns over. turn right at atlantis.

 

[solderdude]

Like I said time and time before, trust your ears, if it sounds good, then nothing else matters.

Correct if it is about personal music enjoyment.
And in the end that's all that counts for any listener, casual or not.

When it is about actual performance your ears are a very poor judge of 'actual signal fidelity' and cannot be trusted in that aspect.
The latter is what ASR discussions are mostly about.

this WARMER DAC is designed from the start to ignore measurements, it's even marketed as such and the Fiio CEO interviews published by various outlets highlight the reasons as to why.

correct.

 

[voodooless]

Correct if it is about personal music enjoyment.
And in the end that's all that counts for any listener, casual or not.

When it is about factual performance your ears are a very poor judge of 'actual signal fidelity' and cannot be trusted.
The latter is what ASR discussions are mostly about.

The trouble is, where does that "trust" end? With Cables? Network switches? Power distributors? Grounding boxes? Or some of those wacky crystal thingies that you can stick on basically anything for the next veil lifting event? And if the answer is not "nowhere", then the next question is: why there?

 

[solderdude]

The trust ends when the post isn't merely a 'personal observation' but stated or assumed as being facts.

That leaves the question as to whether or not one can vent personal opinions on ASR or must/should refrain.

This too (IMO) depends on how personal opinions are vented.
One can choose to state them as 'facts' or clearly state that the post is that merely that persons personal opinion and even state this may not be so for anyone else while making clear this is not determined under controlled conditions.

This makes the world of difference for a 'subjective observation' in a post on ASR.

The problem with even disclaimed posts is that people might still confuse someone's opinion (because that's what it is) with facts simply because the read it on ASR.

 

[voodooless]

I'm not so much interested in what is stated in posts... I'm much more interested in the line of thinking of the subjective mind in determining these boundaries For science, you know

 

[SMen]

I've seen a portion of that thread before, it's too long to read whole obviously, but even still I still stand by my points and this will not change. I am not anti-scientific for the record, I am a realist and have literally heard with my own ears what should sound great based on measurements that do not actually sound good to me. And that's the sole reason why I hold my view this strongly, it's taken 5 years of reading ASR to get to that point obviously but it is what it is.

People can share differing opinions and that's fine.

Edit*
You are also forgetting something quite pinnacle here, this WARMER DAC is designed from the start to ignore measurements, it's even marketed as such and the Fiio CEO interviews published by various outlets highlight the reasons as to why. Colour > Measurements as far as this DAC goes, and that too is fine as plenty of people prefer that for musical enjoyment.

I think you are "slightly" over-broadening the discussion! I mean, suddenly you are not describing the FiiO warmer but the entire chain/system it is in, and room etc.

I'm not sure the Warmer is designed to ignore measurements ... it is just very much designed without achieving the perfect measurements loved on ASR as the design goal.

Where objective contributors argue that even this valve buffer should be inaudible, or perhaps demand extensive proof with controlled tests that it is, in fact, audible, is where perhaps you are on stronger ground! Also even the "component chain" inside the FiiO itself, where you have a power supply and valve buffer approach combined which is different to most comparably priced DACs - that might be a more interesting discussion than the the entire hifi chain and room etc.

 

[Noske]

I'm not so much interested in what is stated in posts... I'm much more interested in the line of thinking of the subjective mind in determining these boundaries For science, you know

It has always been my contention that the subjective mind includes everyone.

A subjective mind has preferences. Everyone has preferences.

What do objectivists prefer?

 

[oleg87]

There comes a time when you have to just accept that objective numbers have to simply be on paper, and that is it, because what is heard by a person can be wildly different to what the numbers might forecast.

...because what is heard by a person often has *nothing* to do with the actual sound produced.
which is fine, but we have no obligation to "accept" technical misinformation and tall tales originating in misplaced trust in human perception.

 

[RickS]

Was having some deja vu over this thread and then realized I had done some clean up here earlier this month. Just finished a major spam clean when a report came in on this thread. Seem it has attracted subjectivists who feel strongly about their opinions. Please try to tolerate them but if they continue to rant, please report. Otherwise threads like this just become a drawn-out siege.

Am going to grab some breakfast and come back later to sort this thread out. Would not be surprised if I wander off for a few days and enjoy the holidays. Hopefully, many of you might find something more festive to do as well.

Happy Holidays!

 

[solderdude]

Some objective measurements of the 'Warmer' by @Jeromeof

FiiO Warmer R2R

A retro-styled R2R DAC with tube warmth, VU meters, and OS/NOS modes that leans into the sound many listeners crave

www.pragmaticaudio.com

For the SINAD chasers ... on XLR out it reached 71.
Distortion is mainly odd harmonic (because of the balanced out being used) this means there isn't the 'tube warmth' which supposedly comes from 2nd order harmonics.
The whole 'bass roll-off' caused by the output capacitors is also shown.

 

[NHL99]

Power consumption measured to be around 23 watts.

Listening to Judas Priest, 'Sin After Sin', from '79.

 

[oleg87]

I see nothing wrong with ASR being an unpleasant place to belligerently insist on posting subjective nonsense completely at odds with the purpose of this forum.

There are dozens of communities where all the fruits of audiophiles' fertile imaginations are taken seriously, and no evidence is demanded - take it there.

 

[SMen]

It is the point of the site. We come here to get away from subjective nonsense.

From point 7:

"But please be mindful of bringing ideas to ASR that are not grounded in proper audio science and engineering will be met with pushback. Nothing wrong with saying you like the sound of this and that gear. But insisting that such an experience overrides what we are about, is going to get you a lot of flak. You will be asked to provide sound evidence and if you can’t, you will get crunched in the gears of ASR."

Audio Science Review FAQ #1

This is the first in a series of FAQs for Audio Science Review. 1. Who created Audio Science Review? The founder is Amir Majidimehr. You can find out more about me by clicking on my background link in my signature. Briefly, I have had a long career in computing, audio, video and imaging...

www.audiosciencereview.com

This is interesting: "please be mindful of bringing ideas to ASR that are not grounded in proper audio science and engineering".

and

"Nothing wrong with saying you like the sound of this and that gear"


Does everyone here agree that this FiiO warmer is 'properly grounded in it's audio science and engineering'?

 

[jareinertson]

It's an anachronistic product!
It certainly hearkens back to other times and other places...

View attachment 491801
View attachment 491802(random internet photos... although there is an Ampzilla carcass down in the basement )

Speaking of anachronistic -- GAS's founder, chief cook & bottlewasher; the late, redoubtable James Bongiornio.
View attachment 491803View attachment 491804

[In Memoriam] James Bongiorno RIP - [English]

An article to celebrate an eclectic man and HiFi design, a genius and a true legend, James Bongiorno. An article written by L. Cadeddu on TNT-Audio - www.tnt-audio.com

www.tnt-audio.com

Good memories of this GAS gear. I sold it when it was new. Fun times.

 

[oleg87]

This is interesting: "please be mindful of bringing ideas to ASR that are not grounded in proper audio science and engineering".

and

"Nothing wrong with saying you like the sound of this and that gear"


Does everyone here agree that this FiiO warmer is 'properly grounded in it's audio science and engineering'?

I think it's properly grounded in savvy marketing and trend-chasing... and the industrial design seems nice.

Performance-wise, it sets no expectation of high fidelity and does not achieve it, but it'll still sound absolutely fine assuming the downstream equipment isn't loading down the AC coupling much. Which seems to me the main issue here: I'm not a fan of losing several dB of subbass (when connected to FiiO's own amps, even).

 

[Svend P]

Does everyone here agree that this FiiO warmer is 'properly grounded in it's audio science and engineering'?

It is not the eqipment that is meant. It is your ideas. There is no reason to believe anyone can tell the difference between DACs, if they all measure better than human hearing. Then science says they will sound identical, and it would take a lot of proof to convince us otherwise.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

The forum is open again...someone kill the inquisition guy... lol...sometimes I wonder about the freedom of speech

why? this isn't a free speech safe space. ASR has rules that restrict our speech and moderation to enforce those rules, like almost every shared social space of any import.

 

[RickS]

This thread continues to be a lightning rod and seems due to the nature of the product. Unless I get major push back, it seems less beneficial than productive so am closing permanently.